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Deletion[]
If WWII is not mentioned in any of the FO games, this article should be deleted.--Gothemasticator 04:23, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
- Isn't it mentioned in the Fallout intro, same place as Hitler, or am I mistaken? Hugs Scar: "Say 'ello to my little friend!" 04:26, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
- Some of the propaganda posters and pictures in Fallout 1 and 2's intro were from World War 2. I believe the actions taken during World War 2 and the next few following years pretty much consolidated the perpetual state of the Fallout pre-war world.
- Some of the weapons used in some of the games, such as the M3A1 "grease gun" SMG are from World War 2.
- And of course the old Sherman Tank from Fallout: Tactics is from World War 2. --Solar Storm 08:50, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
- Where is it mentioned in the Fallout Universe, that these weapons where products of WWII. Or are you making a simple assumption that because they are in the real world, they most also be in the Fallout World. As for the content of the page, again, a lot of that is assumption and taken from the real world. It even includes the mistake that divergence took place after WWII, when there is evidence that divergence took place long time before (1918 Sunset Sas established). There is just to much assumption and speculation in its contents.
13:54, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
- Where is it mentioned in the Fallout Universe, that these weapons where products of WWII. Or are you making a simple assumption that because they are in the real world, they most also be in the Fallout World. As for the content of the page, again, a lot of that is assumption and taken from the real world. It even includes the mistake that divergence took place after WWII, when there is evidence that divergence took place long time before (1918 Sunset Sas established). There is just to much assumption and speculation in its contents.
- Sorry, I always assumed Divergence at the earliest must have taken place at 1948? Considering that's what all the articles on Divergence and the timeline stated before just a few hours ago when you changed them to 1918? I was postulating that Sunset Sarsaparilla's origins was either just a fabricated story to fit in with the Wild West theme of it, or that the Fallout team intended us to believe that there really was some sort of that encounter in our timeline but we haven't heard of it due to it not taking off in our timeline but doing so in the Fallout timeline after the divergence. (So, in other words that it was supposed to really exist in our world but just wasn't successful, where it became popular and eventually was turned into a corporate drink in the Fallout universe after the divergence in the 1940s.)
- If your interpretation of divergence happening in 1918 because of a drink, then the Fallout world should have diverged in 1697 when Andrew Endicott was abducted or maybe even earlier when the aliens (since they're from the official Mothership Zeta DLC, we have to assume all the events are canon and would supersede the nebulous origins of a drink) set up watch over the Earth.
- Enough of my speculations, but still. Even if the timeline diverged in 1918, not much could have changed if the B-29 bomber still crashed on that same day, or if the first American in space still took place at the same day.
- This is why I assume, although I may be wrong, that Fallout's World War 2 and our World War 2 were the same or almost exactly the same.
- Finally, one of the reasons I added World War 2 is because of the nuclear weapons that were developed and used in this time, which would eventually end the world and set the stage for the Fallout timeline.
- The other reason is because the event and the next few years following it pretty much formed the pre-war Fallout world's political situation and weaponry of the Fallout world, such as the aircraft carriers, plane design, etc.
- Perhaps we should email Bethesda or Obsidian to check when divergence first began and if World War 2 is of importance?
- Finally, it is sort-of mentioned in the intro of Fallout 1 as "The Romans waged war to gather slaves and wealth. Spain built an empire from its lust for gold and territory. Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic superpower." ::::http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_intro
- Also, all the pictures in the intro were from World War 2, so World War 2 must have some significance in the eyes of the developers if they chose to recycle images from there instead of hiring their concept artists to make new ones.
- I'm sure there must be some other references out there as well, especially if the atomic bomb was developed in this war. --Solar Storm 15:53, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
- The images in the intro definitely count as a mention in the games. I hope my recent edit satisfies the content of this discussion. I have removed the delete tag.--Gothemasticator 16:06, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
- Two things I note, one this page has been deleted several times for the very reason that I stated. Secondly, we also need to make pages for the Roman empire and Spanish empire, since both where mentioned in the same sentence.
- Seriously though, I see no reason to have a page that has limited info compared to its Wikipedia counterpart. Plus no information on the Fallout Universe (since there is none, but for a mention). Also, since the earliest establish time of divergence is 1918, all real world info is speculative at best. Example would be the moon landing mentioned in FO3, since different people where involved and the dates do not match the real world in that instance, how can we be sure that those involved in WWII are the same and that the dates are also the same.
17:08, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
Thank you, Gothemasticator, for removing the deletion nomination and adding onto the article.
To Shadow Avater.
Did you read my last post? The Romans and Spanish are not important because the actions they took (apart from the Spanish discovery of the Americas and Edward Sallow being influenced by the Romans) had little direct impacts to the Fallout world, but what happened in World War 2 affected many things in the Fallout world. For example, World War 2 saw the rise of the United States on the global scene, after previously being relatively isolationist and reserved.
World War 2 also saw the first usage of nuclear weapons. It is mentioned on the Israel and Middle East article that in 2054 the nuclear exchange in the Middle East rose fears throughout the world. If the atomic bomb was never used, the world would have little gauge of the power of the atomic bomb, plus Israel would have never existed or would have taken much longer to come into existence as one of the main reasons of the creation of Israel was due to the sympathy felt because of Nazi Germany's extermination of the Jews and the displacement of the Jews as they fled the Holocaust.
The United Nations was also quite important in the establishment of Israel.
World War 2 also saw the division of Germany, along with the formation of the United Nations. If World War 2 never happened, there would likely have been no United Nations and the League of Nations would have continued to exist.
Also, the day of the bomber crashing and the day of the first American in space ARE the same as in our world. The only difference is that the bomber was a slightly different model (still a B-29, but a standard one in the Fallout world, not a reconnaissance B-29 like in our world) and the first American in space was also at the same day as in our world, but a different American went into space.
Did you read my previous post? I offered explanations into this.
Finally, I'll say it again. If the timeline would have diverged in 1918 because of the hazy origins of a Wild West themed drink, (remember that it was stated that before Sunset Sarsaparilla that people only had Nuka-Cola and water to drink? And Nuka Cola was only invented in 2044) then it would actually have diverged in 1697 when Andrew Endicott was abducted by aliens. At the latest, the Aliens would have arrived at 1697 because that is the year they abducted Andrew Endicott. And since in our world we seem to have no Aliens around our Earth, or at least the aggressive ones that are in the Fallout world, then the timeline would have diverged by 1697, or even before.
Don't get me wrong, I mean you no offense, ShadowAvatar. If I saw the page was created before and deleted, I wouldn't have recreated it. I typed in "World War 2" in the search box before I created this article, but found nothing about a deleted article. --Solar Storm 17:58, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
- You lost me at the first sentence, Romans not important.... have you played FNV. Since the Legion is modelled after the Roman empire, they do in fact play an important part. P.S. Your reasoning are speculative based on real world events. And I never said the first man in space, I said the moon landing, which happened 4 days prior to its real world counterpart. 18:14, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
- You've got to look at the bigger picture, World War 2 would eventually go on to cause the Resource Wars which would cause the Great War, due to many of the reasons I have stated that I suspect you may have just skimmed through.
- If the Great War never happened, Edward Sallow's birth, violent mentality, and especially forming Caesar's Legion would never have happened. So, it's all a chain of events, World War 2 starting this domino effect.
- By the time of 1969, the timeline definitely diverged, the US was divided into 13 Commonwealths, Nixon would go on to become popular somehow, etc.
- But World War 2 took place from 1937/1939-1945, and I was using the events closer to it (B-29 and first American in space, both of which also took place after World War 2) to show that very little would have changed, if at all, in Fallout's World War 2.
- Also, look at the P-51 Mustang in the Museum of Technology. The museum would certainly only show important and historical pieces of American technology, and the P-51 Mustang became historical and renown from World War 2.
- And finally, more proof to back this up and World War 2.
- "Take to the skies and soar above the clouds as you view our aircraft exhibits throughout the Museum of Technology. The original Wright Brothers Flyer, the vintage World War II P-51 Mustang and several other aircraft can be found hanging about the museum. Also, be sure an visit our Flight Experience Gallery where you can take a simulated airline flight on board a full-sized jetliner or step into the hair-raising, white-knuckle world of air traffic control in our Tower of Terror exhibit. Sponsored by Lockreed Industries." http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Museum_of_Technology_terminal_entries#Flight_Exhibits
- More so, the Sierra Army Depot wouldn't have been constructed in 1942 hadn't it been for World War 2.
- Another indirect mention to World War 2 from Fallout 1's intro.
- "In 2077, the storm of world war had come again. In two brief hours, most of the planet was reduced to cinders. And from the ashes of nuclear devastation, a new civilization would struggle to arise." http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_intro
- Another direct mention of World War 2 from http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Rivet_City_terminal_entries#U.S._Declaration_of_War_on_Germany by Abraham Washington's terminal.
- "Part of our collection is a copy of the formal declaration of war made on Germany during World War II on December 11, 1941, by the government and endorsed by the President Franklin D. Roosevelt. While the document doesn't evoke the brilliance of other masterworks like the Emancipation Proclamation, it still served as a reminder to the world that the United States wasn't a power to be trifled with."
- Even more direct mentioning and evidence of World War 2.
- "You see a small display appear and show the remnants of some World War II movie." http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/GENDISK.MSG
- And finally, more direct mentioning.
- "In 2066 the U.S.S. Ebon Atoll was accidentally sunk by the U.S. Navy submarine U.S.S. Interference during the Anchorage Campaign. The Interference mistook the Ebon Atoll for an enemy vessel during radio silence and shot it before obtaining visual confirmation with a nuclear torpedo killing all on board. It is one of the worst U.S. Navy disasters since World War II." http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Ebon_Atoll --Solar Storm 18:27, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
- I can see what you're trying to say, GhostAvatar, but it has been explicitly stated by developers that the existence of Sunset Sarsaparilla in 1918 does not affect the date of divergence. I think it was a bit premature to change all the divergence references to 1918 considering how well established the "sometime after 1945" thing was, without any discussion. I can see that you feel very strongly about the inclusion of references to the real world outside of behind the scenes sections, so maybe it's worth starting a topic in the forum so the wiki can decide on a policy once and for all, so you don't have to slog through the same argument every time it comes up on a case-by-case basis. --Strong Suit 22:08, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
Storm, you need to be more brief and drop the emphases. Your arguments come across as wild accusatory ranting. Also, learn to link within the wiki. Use double brackets and just the article name.--Gothemasticator 07:01, September 7, 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, Gothemasticator. I was just getting stressed out that GhostAvatar seemed not to have read my posts so I bolded the specific parts which I found important as they are from World War II and show how everything or almost everything is exactly the same as in our universe. Thanks for correcting my posts, and thanks for the advice. --Solar Storm 09:28, September 7, 2011 (UTC)
@StrongSuit - You bring an interesting point with that quote from Sawyer. What he seems to be saying is that Sunset Sarsparilla is a fictional company, and so should be seen not a sign of divergence but merely as a fictional presence in the "real" pre-divergence history of earth. That does complicate things for us, especially in my mind regarding the earlier alien abductions. If aliens can be considered not as signs of divergence but as fictional elements of the "real" world, we could tidy up our divergence logic again and set the date sometime after WWII. Hmmm...--Gothemasticator 15:42, September 7, 2011 (UTC)
- @Strong suit, I did in fact discuss this with another person some time ago, User_talk:GhostAvatar/Archive_8#Divergence and User_talk:Itachou/Archive_4#Divergence. So don't go around thinking that I just did it on a whim for the sheer fun of it. As for the reference, that is a good find and I have no issues being corrected when it is indeed supported by evidence. But one thing does worry me, this discussion has had certain similarities with others by Flowers/Lugiatm. Funny thing is, you only bring those up as example and not others, where I have taken the same stance. So it is obvious you have not been following me, but them or you are them!
- But this new evidence now brings further doubts into my mind about the relevance of this page. Before the page existed as a mentioned only event that happened within the divergence of the Fallout world (hence why I marked it for deletion, instead of outright deleting it like it has been previously in the past). Now it exists outside of Divergence and quite frankly has no relevance to the Fallout world, being an actually real world event it has no differences between the two. Since we are not Wikipedia nor can we cover such things is as great a detail, we should simply intra wiki link all mention to the Wikipedia page.
- @Solar, when you come out with comments such as "World War 2 would eventually go on to cause the Resource Wars". It does kinda lose creditability in what you are talking about. In then comes across as your own interpretation of key facts into a speculative narrative work about the complex political landscape within the Fallout world for over 100 years. Especially when WWII had in no way, any effect on the cause of the Resource Wars. The Resource Wars would have existed regardless of WWII. AT the end of the day, we are not here to tell a story, but to deliver the facts. 20:08, September 7, 2011 (UTC)
- Now here is another one for you, Lockheed was est in 1912 in the real world. It also exists in the Fallout Universe as Lockreed. Now that isn't really a fictional brand, but a divergence since they are the same entity, which would actually put Divergence before 1912. 23:29, September 7, 2011 (UTC)
- Now here is another one for you, Lockheed was est in 1912 in the real world. It also exists in the Fallout Universe as Lockreed. Now that isn't really a fictional brand, but a divergence since they are the same entity, which would actually put Divergence before 1912.
- There are plenty of reasons why a company established in 1912 would have a name change by 2077. Our universe's Lockheed had a name change to Lockheed Martin by 1995. I'm not entirely sure if I understand what you're saying about Divergence happening in 1912 because a company that exists in the Fallout world also happens to exist in our world but they have a different name in each of the universes.
In the Fallout world, there's no evidence of Lockheed being established as Lockreed, so it's entirely plausible they could have had a name change in over a century and a half of operation. The company could have gone defunct and then refounded, etc. There's an unlimited amount of possibilities, so to say they were founded in 1912 as Lockreed instead of Lockheed is just speculation.
Perhaps it is speculation that World War II would eventually go on to cause the Resource Wars, but then again it is also speculation to assume that World War II affected the cause of the Resource Wars in no way. After all, much of the deep-seated hatred of Communism, division of Europe, the shape of the airplanes and nukes resembling World War II's, timidness of Japan (the last ambassador was from Japan after all who wished for peace, so the country couldn't have been too imperialist) and the rise of the United States on the global scene resulted from World War II and the years following it. I understand that you may say that I have no proof that World War II happened in the way that caused any of the results, or the results could have happened gradually over the 100 years precipitating the Resource Wars but that's why I cited the crash of the B-29 Bomber on the same day as in our world, just a different model or the fact that the first American went into space on the same day as in our world, but again, a different American. Or finally, that the Sierra Army Depot was established in the same year to show that there were only very minor differences in the Fallout world and our world before the latter part of the 1960s when Divergence completely branched off our universe and the Fallout's. --Solar Storm 13:19, September 8, 2011 (UTC)
I've shortened the article again as well as removing much of the infobox content. It seems to me that the article is notable, especially as the setting of the first nuclear weapon use -- an event central to the Fallout world. In addition, the United Nations and many individual countries have articles here and are relevant within the Fallout world. I have added Cold War as a red link, because I think an equally brief linked article would be a good addition, considering that the 50s World of Tomorrow is largely characterized by a Cold War which apparently did not end.
I am also going to re-add the date of the first atomic bombings to the timeline, with a link to this WWII article.
However, Ghost Avatar has good strong points about not needing to cover out-of-universe stuff as well as the need to avoid editorializing, theorizing, characterizing, and interpreting the facts we cover. Hopefully, these latest edits bring the article closer to acceptable.--Gothemasticator 14:46, September 8, 2011 (UTC)