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Gender in infobox[]
Repeating the sentiment left in my edit summary: Is there any confirmation that Orlando uses male character modeling? I'd put that into question since this is PTS content. Regardless, "male" should not be placed here by default when we have in-game conversations that suggest non-conformity with gender, although as far as I've seen, Orlando doesn't comment on it specifically. Burke uses male character modeling, just because of the engine, but we have direct confirmation that they are non-binary and list as such in their infobox. LaymansReign (talk) 20:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- The NPC stats are set in the software and that is what should be reflected in the infobox. For both characters. This isn’t anything new here. Great Mara (talk) 21:11, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- If this was the case, all synth characters in Fallout 4 would be tagged as Human, because they have the HumanRace flag. However, we have extra information that confirms they are synths, regardless of what the NPC stats say. Orlando and Burke are very similar. They may use male character modeling (this has not even been confirmed for the former), but we have extra information that confirms they do not identify as male or female. Orlando's case is more unclear, but the use of "they" pronouns should be enough to leave the Gender parameter blank, in my opinion. Male modeling flags such as SkinYoungMale, for example, may be noted in the infobox in their respective parameters, but the Gender parameter here should not be filled out. Additionally, there is developer confirmation of Orlando's pronoun usage, though it is not yet on the page. LaymansReign (talk) 22:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Omitting data is not the purpose of a wiki. The synth characters should also have a tooltip at least noting the HumanRace flag. The data fields have intended uses and should match what is in the game files. Do what you want with the meat of the page, but presenting raw technical data is also the purpose of this wiki. Great Mara (talk) 22:03, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have confirmation that there is in-game data assigning a gender to Orlando? LaymansReign (talk) 22:05, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Omitting data is not the purpose of a wiki. The synth characters should also have a tooltip at least noting the HumanRace flag. The data fields have intended uses and should match what is in the game files. Do what you want with the meat of the page, but presenting raw technical data is also the purpose of this wiki. Great Mara (talk) 22:03, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- If this was the case, all synth characters in Fallout 4 would be tagged as Human, because they have the HumanRace flag. However, we have extra information that confirms they are synths, regardless of what the NPC stats say. Orlando and Burke are very similar. They may use male character modeling (this has not even been confirmed for the former), but we have extra information that confirms they do not identify as male or female. Orlando's case is more unclear, but the use of "they" pronouns should be enough to leave the Gender parameter blank, in my opinion. Male modeling flags such as SkinYoungMale, for example, may be noted in the infobox in their respective parameters, but the Gender parameter here should not be filled out. Additionally, there is developer confirmation of Orlando's pronoun usage, though it is not yet on the page. LaymansReign (talk) 22:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
The data on their sex can be pulled as soon at people get access to the game data. Are you going to continue to omit it by choice once the data can be accessed after release? Great Mara (talk) 22:13, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- For clarification, I'm not arguing it be some sort of standard upheld across all character pages. For 99% of characters, the NPC data is their gender. I am of the opinion that the infobox should reflect NPC data until in-game information contradicts that. This is what happens with synth pages and why they are not "Human", although the HumanRace flag is included in the "CK Race" parameter. However, Orlando and Burke are the 1% special cases. Any engine-mandated flag for Male or Female can be mentioned on the page somewhere, but the in-game gender preference as stated by characters should be the primary information presented. Additionally, I'm not aware of any policy or guideline necessitating what you're describing. LaymansReign (talk) 22:23, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- The content policy. All information must be accurate and all information needs to be objective. Omitting data from the infobox on personal preference violates both. Great Mara (talk) 22:27, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- The gender preference (or non-preference) of the character as presented in-game is not any less objective than data from the engine, especially from a story perspective, because it is a fact of the character as shown in the narrative. I'm not saying any data flags should be omitted entirely, rather that the in-game preference should take priority in something like a tooltip, like you mentioned earlier. LaymansReign (talk) 22:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Just an fyi in 76 there is no such things as Male technically, there is only female and default. When it comes to gender there isn't anything that tells the engine it's male. "Male" is just the default and is used for anything that isn't female. That includes things like robots and animals. Female is only denoted by a flag on the npc record. -Eckserah
Head Dataminer 22:44, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, this is helpful information. I believe Male is applicable when used as the default setting for most characters, but it should not be presented as the primary information on this infobox, when we have in-game confirmation of a different gender (non-)preference. LaymansReign (talk) 22:48, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- We could always add another parameter to differentiate between NPC sex from the game files and in-game gender identity. I'm sure someone is going to figure out eventually that non-binary NPCs still have male or female hair, facial features, etc.
- intrepid359
5/18/22 [6:01pm]
- The problem is that, like Ecks said, there is no "Male" flag in the files, so the only option technically would be female, which is just unnecessary. The current Gender parameter and its usage on the wiki is fine. However, in-game gender preference should take priority in cases like Orlando and Burke's. LaymansReign (talk) 23:07, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- intrepid359
- We could always add another parameter to differentiate between NPC sex from the game files and in-game gender identity. I'm sure someone is going to figure out eventually that non-binary NPCs still have male or female hair, facial features, etc.
- Thank you, this is helpful information. I believe Male is applicable when used as the default setting for most characters, but it should not be presented as the primary information on this infobox, when we have in-game confirmation of a different gender (non-)preference. LaymansReign (talk) 22:48, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Just an fyi in 76 there is no such things as Male technically, there is only female and default. When it comes to gender there isn't anything that tells the engine it's male. "Male" is just the default and is used for anything that isn't female. That includes things like robots and animals. Female is only denoted by a flag on the npc record. -Eckserah
- The gender preference (or non-preference) of the character as presented in-game is not any less objective than data from the engine, especially from a story perspective, because it is a fact of the character as shown in the narrative. I'm not saying any data flags should be omitted entirely, rather that the in-game preference should take priority in something like a tooltip, like you mentioned earlier. LaymansReign (talk) 22:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- The content policy. All information must be accurate and all information needs to be objective. Omitting data from the infobox on personal preference violates both. Great Mara (talk) 22:27, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
This is something we have rules for:
- In articles, use the pronouns and gender identity that the character uses for themselves.
As such, Laymans is correct: We use whatever gender identity Orlando has in the story, and there is no need to fall back on CK data flags (it does sound uncomfortably close to dogwhistles about "biological sex", in fact). Тагазиэль 09:41, 19 May 2022 (UTC)