This talk page is only for discussing improvements to the page "Logan's Loophole."

Stealth Boy Effect Edit

Does this trait also affect Stealth boy duration? if so, does anyone know what's the max time you can get from a stealth boy with all related and consumable perks? (Lily's stealth girl perk, Chemist, Day tripper, and logan's loophole) ~~Neosym~~ 01:44, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

Seeing as how Stealth Boys aren't chems, they aren't effected by Logan's Loophole. --Kastera (talk) 02:54, July 25, 2011 (UTC)
I think there is a glitch or bug which makes chem related perks affect all consumables, and not just chems, including food and stealth boys. This is stated in pages like Chemist. Havent checked myself though. Neosym 17:02, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

I can confirm that it affects the GRX Implant on 360, one dose lasts aprox 22 seconds of bullet time.

It affects the Stealth Boy, just like Chemist. Brfritos 07:21, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

What is Logan's Loophole? Edit

I know what the trait does, but virtually all of the other traits listed were something that could be used to describe someone in the real world. I tried looking up Logan's Loophole on the internet and I can't find any information on a real-life trait with that name; all that happens is the search engine directs me to the wiki page. I don't know if it's an actual condition or trait or whatever, but if the people here could shed some light on the subject then that would be awesome!RiftJargon 21:05, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

....You know it explains it on the page right? UserGreatMara9mm Pistol 21:08, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

Oh okay, I didn't see it because I generally don't look over the "Behind the Scenes" sections. I generally look at the "Notes" and "Bugs".RiftJargon 21:12, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

The behind the scenes is also wrong about the "wound". Its not a stigmata, its the light in the hand as seen in the movie Logan's Run.

Level test Edit

If I de-level myself via console commands below my current (38) but above 30, will 38 become my new max? I'll test it. ( 20:20, July 26, 2011 (UTC))

Did the math? Edit

NOTE: The math discussion below is wrong, see update at the end of this section by me, lest you get confused. (Thelee (talk) 20:16, July 17, 2012 (UTC))

I'm guessing the folks who made this didn't - Chem Resistant + Old World Gourmet + Brainless already equals 100% addiction resistance, and even if you opt to have your brain put back in you still have an 85% addiction resist, leaving the double duration of chems as the only "real" benefit to offset the hard level cap cost...and with Chemist and Day Tripper giving an 83% duration buff, that's a bit of a hard sell. Yeah, I could see a "chem-fueled fiend" idea, but the constant reupping would quickly drain your supply, and battles rarely last beyond a single dose of most chems under Day Tripper/Chemist already. This trait's usefulness is debatable, and I debate it's useless. 13:40, July 29, 2011 (UTC)

For me the chemical addiction thing is marginal. At level 30 the character carries loads of drugs and money to pay for cures, and anyway, what use for chems at this level ? But it's useful if you want to cap your character to keep it specialized and not become a generic overpowered war machine. With a level cap your thief remains a sneaky character and the brainless brawler you created at the beginning doesn't become a master scientist just because you have no choice but to allocate points on unwanted skills. This trait is optional and can be ignored, but it should be a game option, like hardcore mode, and not a trait.Croquignol 08:59, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

The benefits seem to be minimal for a high level charactor. However, has anyone considered its use for a brand new Level 1 character?

For a low level charactor, you have to admit that the benefits are immense - doubled chem duration with no chance of addiction (good charactors can give away all their Fixer to the Followers). Chems will be both rare and powerful at the start, and being able to make the most of them without risk of addiction is a massive advantage. To effectively duplicate the benefits of Logan's Loophole, you will need the perks Chemist (Lvl 12) along with the aforementioned Chem Resistant (Lvl 14), Old World Gourmet (Lvl 2) and Brainless (Big MT). Even discounting the latter two (Old World Gourmet has other effects and Brainless is granted for free), Logan's Loophole's benefits is worth at least 2 mid-level perks - quite a lot for a trait that a level 1 charactor can start with.

This will need verification, but the doubled duration may also extend to healing from food consumables (at least I experienced it on the PC version after switching a perk out for Logan's Loophole), in effect doubling total healing from food ( and Stimpaks in Hardcore only).

If it works in the same glitchy way as chemist does, then it should affect all consumables duration, including food, stealth boys, magazines, etc.

The Sink Autodoc allows a one-time reselection of traits. So it is conceivable that a brand new charactor can start with Logan's Loophole and enjoy its benefits up to Level 30, then swap out the trait to continue leveling up to the level cap. This method may need testing, but if it works ... --SupidSeep 10:18, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

The question is whether de-selecting the trait at the auto doc removes all the bonuses or whether it is glitched. Someone should test using this trait and then removing it at the autodoc to see if the benefits stay. --SkyHiRider 11:11, August 3, 2011 (UTC)
Hardcore only? Food heals over time in normal mode too. It's only Stimpaks that heal over time in hardcore and instantly in normal mode. --Kris User Hola 12:25, August 3, 2011 (UTC)
My bad, apologies. Amended. --SupidSeep 11:50, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

Is there a cap on the maximum amount of poison/addiction resistance you can achieve the way radiation and damage resistance are capped at 85%? That could make a substantial difference in gameplay. --DeadlyPrey(talk) 18:44, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

If you're still around, I'm pretty sure all this math above is absolutely wrong (and I'm slashing it out). As far as I can tell, addiction rates are multiplicative, not additive, so there's no actual way to get 0% immunity to addiction, no matter what perks you have, UNLESS you get Logan's Loophole. This is mentioned in the article itself. (Thelee (talk) 20:16, July 17, 2012 (UTC))

Combat effectiveness and loss of perksEdit

Since creatures level with the player they would never get stronger than level 30, meaning you wouldn't lose any combat effectiveness whatsoever because the creatures wouldn't be tough enough to require more perks. Similarly the loss of health wouldn't be much of a concern, as you could heavily buff yourself with chems like psycho, fire ant nectar, med-x, rocket and ultrajet without any risk of addiction. Mictlantecuhtli 15:47, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

Stacking with Chemist. Edit

Does the trait give the Chemist effect, or does Chemist stack with this trait? I went ahead and added the synergy note because it seems kinda silly to make a trait that just recycles the chemist effect without letting the player know ahead of time they do not stack. Mictlantecuhtli 20:32, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

Well, do the math. Med-X lasts 6 minutes and the perk doubles the duration, 12 minutes. Chemist also doubles the duration, wich means 24 minutes. Add more 33% from Day Tripper and you have 32 minutes. So after picking Logans'Loophole + Chemist + Day Tripper you will have +25 DR (Med-X), +25 DAM (Psycho), +3END +2ST +60 HP (Buffout) from the beginning of the game. Since you can't become addicted anymore, you can take A LOT of alcohol and gain at least +2DT +1ST +1CH also from the beginning and Mentats are the most common drug encountered, so the -1 INT is not a problem (and you gain +2PE). Add the later chems like Battle Brew, Sierra Madre Martini, Slasher, Steady and you have = God Mode + all weapons accurate due to Steady. This also affects tribal medicine, like Weapon Binding Ritual, wich adds +10 DAM to melee/unarmed skills even if you have 100% on those. Brfritos 07:44, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

Not quite from the beginning - you still have to get to Level 14 for the Chemist perk. However, Day Tripper should be easy to get once you have enough chems. --SupidSeep 12:12, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

Took 20 buffouts with trait and chemist+daytripper, effect lasted about a week of ingame time, so yeah this trait gives you the benefit of being able to play the whole game drugged with no penalty whatsoever, considering that you can keep a steady drug supply.Neosym

Can it be removed by sink auto-doc? Edit

It will be great to start with this trait, and start OWB about lvl 28~29, then remove the trait. Taking only good side and when it's time to pay the cost, dump it away.

immortal? Edit

the talk bout never aging again

Removing/Replacing Logan's Loophole via Sink Autodoc (Confirmed on PC) Edit

I reloaded a savegame right at the start before SPECIAL/Trait selection,picked up Logan's Loophole (along with Skilled) and played in the Mojave (and Dead Money DLC) on Hardcore up til Level 28 before starting Big MT. There I made a beeline for the Sink Autodoc before playing til Level 30.

Upon Leveling to 30, Logan's Loophole prevents further levels by negating all further experience gain (tested by killed a few more critters with no further xp gain). I returned to the Sink Autodoc where I reselected my traits and replaced Logan's Loophole (with Built-to-Destroy) before continuing playing until Level 31. Removing Logan's Loophole also removed the doubled conusumable duration (tested with Dog Steak and Stimpaks) and enabled addiction (swallowed a bunch of chems several times before getting addicted to Dixon's Jet).

So, now that it is confirmed (on PC) that Logan's Loophole can be removed/replaced to re-enable leveling past 30, I suggest that Logan's Loophole be considered a recommended starting perk because, as mentioned in earlier discussions, its benefits are especially pronounced at starting and lower levels.--SupidSeep 20:19, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

This could be a useful strategy to pause leveling and gain time to collect skill books for perks with high skill requirements such as laser commander or jury rigging. It also has the added benefit of generally making the DLCs easier. Rhomb (talk) 16:48, April 21, 2013 (UTC)

Logan's Loophole is far from worthless Edit

I've seen people say this isn't a good trait, but is that true? Let's look at it.

Chemist is one of the best perks in the game, so you should always take it if you plan to make much use of consumables. Day Tripper is free, so you should always get that. What you may not know is that entry points stack on each other, so Chemist and Day Tripper will increase base duration, plus increase the effects of each other, resulting in 266% duration. Well, Logan's Loophole can double that whole amount again, resulting in a massive 532% duration.

What does this means? Well, add in Fast Times and you've got 60.8 second Turbos, for one example (yes, I've tested this). Compare that to 30.4 seconds with just Chemist and Day Tripper. And that's addiction free, baby. Even combining Brainless Gametitle-FNV OWB, Chem Resistant, and Old World Gourmet Gametitle-FNV DM only reduces you to 28.125% addiction chance (0.5*0.75*0.75), and due to addiction chance building up with continued use, you'll still always get addicted eventually. You can't get addiction immunity without Logan's Loophole. Addiction is easy to clear, but Logan's Loophole adds convenience by having it never happen in the first place.

Oh, and the Modify Positive Chem Duration entry point that Logan's Loophole, Chemist, and Day Tripper use? Yeah, it affects all items classified as alchemy. This means every consumable in the game. Food, stimpaks, stealth boys, everything gets that x5.32 duration. Again, this is twice the possible x2.66 you can get without the trait. Some consumables are harder to find than others, and this added duration means you'll need half as many with this trait.

You can nearly max most skills by level 30 anyway. Skipping levels 30-50 will cost you ten perks, but you really don't need that many extra. At level 30 you already have enough to build a very powerful character. By level 30 or 50 you're already a powerhouse. The difference at high levels doesn't matter as much. Logan's Loophole adds a lot of potential power right away at the lower levels, and this can be extremely valuable when you're just starting the game.--SushiSquid 14:37, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with SushiSquid.

Your skills don't get any higher than 100, and by level 30 with the right build, you can achieve all but 2 or 3 of your skills at 100. You don't even need an optimized build, either (but it helps. With the Skilled glitch that gives you +15 to all skills rather than +5 to all skills, I have every skill maxed out at level 30 except Explosives). In areas with scaling enemies, locking your level at 30 is a huge bonus. You may have a couple of extra perks at 45 that increase your damage by around 25 to 30%, but compared to level 30, a level 45 scaled enemy typically has 75% to 100% more health than their level 30 equivalents. This ratio only gets worse as it goes up to level 50 when the last DLC drops.

Combined with the addiction immunity and doubled chem duration, this trait has the net effect of making the game EASIER rather than more difficult. My current Logan's Loophole character easily kills things on Very Hard difficulty because enemy health no longer scales to obscene heights, and the few enemies with high health in spite of their level (Deathclaws) are also easily dispatched with the right combination of drugs. You really don't miss those 10 extra perks. Hahnsoo 06:20, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

Another good thing about Logan's Loophole, on the early levels you're always looking for extra healing items. If you pick Old World Gourmet (6 endurance, 45 survival, possible to pick on lvl 2.) Alchohol will give healing, combined with Logan's Loopehole your alchohol effectively becomes healing items that buffs str and chr at a loss of int, but the loss of int goes away, by which time your wounds will have been restored. - FieryWrath 15:50, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

So it's not just useful. It distorts the balance of the game.

How about some changes? I'd suggest one or more of the following: make the chems effective half as long instead of twice as long; replace addiction with a temporary loss of some health or action points, or temporary clipping of some SPECIAL values at 7 or 8; make direct stacking of chems impossible (that is, if you want to use, say, five Turbos, you have to wait for the first one to wear off before administering the second); make heavy chem use of steadily diminishing effectiveness (for example: use more than 5 Psycho a day, and each additional Psycho has a cumulative 15% loss of effectiveness); very small but not entirely insignificant risk of a "heart attack" (-50% health). Wunengzi 20:52, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

Castrate the living hell out of it. Great idea. --DeadlyPrey(talk) 21:15, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Well I finally got the last two dlc’s and while playing the first one, OWB, I made it to level 50. After coming back to the Mojave, I haven’t noticed any enemy getting any harder to kill, if anything their easier. I would have to disagree with the assessment that locking them (and you) at level 30 is a benefit.

As far as the chem use, this is something I have never understood either. Other then stimpaks or rad-x/away, I’ve never had a need to use any chem. I used a few mentats while doing dead money because I was shy a couple points of lock picking skill I needed, and if I get over burdened I’ll drink a beer to increase my strength if I happen to have one in my inventory, but that’s the extent of my chem use. Even on very hard, unless your foolishly running head first into battle, I’m at a loss as to why you would need them other than on a rare occasion. ReapTheChaos 06:44, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

That's your prerogative. Chems make the game more fun because they'll often allow you to pull off things that would be much more of a chore, like popping some rebound and steady and taking out a whole camp from long range, or you can do things you'd never attempt otherwise like pop a turbo and dance around a deathclaw beating the crap out of him with a baseball bat. I've played the game dozens of times now and it's to the point where I could just approach certain areas with extreme caution and the exact proper weapons to get the job done the easiest before any enemies even know what happened because I happen to already know every part of the map like the back of my hand, but where's the fun in that? I've played Logan's Loophole on at least my last 5 characters because it affects your gameplay a lot when you know you don't have to worry about addiction or worrying about accruing every last little morsel of XP because of the vast chasm between each level at high levels. I stockpile chems and use them liberally instead of hording them for the perfect right moment.
I'd have to also disagree about difficulty. At level 30, there is still a good amount of danger to keep you on your toes, yet you don't have to deal as much with ridiculous bullet sponges. At level 30 on very hard, I can cap a marked man (except for named ones) anywhere on his body with an AMR and drop him with that one shot, hidden or not. At level 45, I might take 2/3s of his health if I'm hidden and it's a head shot. Now he's ornery and I have to hope I can hit him with one more shot before he regenerates all his health or discovers me, and it's difficult to get another head shot because he's amped up and moving around quickly and erratically. If I have enough patience I can just stay still until he eventually gives up on his frantic behavior and my status changes to [HIDDEN] once again so I can try again. Encounters like that get old, and I don't particularly wanna deal with them every few minutes when I'm running through the DLCs and whatnot. Most of the Mojave enemies don't really seem to level with you past the original level 30 cap, so I can see the point in your comment about returning after level 50... but if that's how you feel then why even bother with another 20 level ups? --DeadlyPrey(talk) 21:50, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

The Sink swap Edit

Cant you just get to level 50 then do the Sink Auto-doc trait switch to get this and be all good?

yes, but then what's the point? You've just spent 99.999% of the game without any of its abilities, and by level 50 you don't need the help anymore. (Thelee (talk) 14:57, August 15, 2012 (UTC))

yes, but its just something to note for any butthurt people saying this has no benefit in-game, and technically its finding a loophole in the loophole OliverSlagfoot (talk) 00:12, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

funny, because I would think that Logan's Loophole is one of the most abusively powerful traits in the game, so really I don't understand any of the complaints above (Thelee (talk) 00:44, August 18, 2012 (UTC))

NOPE. You can't re-spec this trait after level 30. --DeadlyPrey(talk) 02:12, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

So what is the final word? You say you can't but the main page says you can? Did they patch it? whats the story haha. 09:30, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

The last time I tried it was after the last patch, so no, it can't be done. At level 30 or lower it works. If you choose Logan's Loophole at character creation or when you leave the Goodsprings area you'll be able to remove it with the Sink Auto-Doc no matter what.--DeadlyPrey(talk) 13:19, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
So then should this be noted on the main page? I just bought the game but haven't played yet because I've been waiting for a reply and I am enjoying the whole plan your character out. Just to be clear was the last patch you tried on the latest patch? This trait is kind of a central point of the build I want to play. will be making an account so I'm not just a bunch of numbers after my posts my apologies. 02:34, November 23, 2012 (UTC)
It should be removed entirely or if there are special conditions they should be noted and the whole line should be put under bugs along with the affected platforms. My experience is on X360, btw. I'm going to nix it for now. --DeadlyPrey(talk) 02:59, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

i have found out that you can still level up to 50 with this trait you can still get perks but when you level up you cant increase skills here is a detailed discription --- first use the goodpsrings infinete exp/extra perks exploit then when you re spec when you leave goodsprings pick logans loophole when you re spec your charecter will level up to whatever your level was before re specing so if you where level 50 you will still level up to 50 when you re spec your charecter but you can only gain perks no skills and if you where level 45 you will level up to 45 after aswell but you cant level up any futher --- i so far have only tested this up to level 32 with both levels i couldent raise skills at all but on level 32 i selected the stay back perk

Failure to level up? Edit

If you us the glitch to obtain max skills, will that prevent you from leveling up and being forever stuck at the Level up screen? I'd assume that it would, because you already have 100 in every skill and are unable to distribute your skill points from the Lvl. 00:42, December 17, 2013 (UTC)

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