Best outcome in my opinion (SPOILERS)Edit
WARNING: Long read, but I believe it's worth it if you want the best ending for the DLC and want to understand why.
This quest is probably the most morally challenging quest in the entire game in my opinion. The ways you can handle the outcome are very different and there's not really a right or wrong way really, however I do believe there is an outcome that any Good or Very Good player should always take. This outcome is the one in which you side with both Wernher and Midea at first but really end up with Ashur and Sandra. Now I'll explain why. This outcome is the most favorable because it properly analyzes the situation on both sides and you are able to pick what is truly right as far as morality is concerned.
On the one hand, Wernher and Midea want to cure the slaves, free them, and gain free labor control over the Pitt. This is good and most players would go into the quests saying "hell yes I want to do this" (assuming the player is Good or Very Good in general).
On the other hand, once you meet Ashur and Sandra, you may begin to see the errors of your ways. Wernher and Midea mean well, but I highly doubt they understand the situation that Ashur and Sandra are in. It's as if they are stuck using the Pitt Raiders to help them reach the point they speak of at the end of this outcome. Ashur is not a bad man, and I respect him which is why I hate killing him and Sandra. It just feels wrong if you're a good character.
So what to do? Side with Wernher at first, and then with Ashur and the end. I feel no sympathy for Wernher and Midea after the outcome. They are very narrow minded and do not understand what is going on. Nobody is making Midea stay either and she could leave if she wants, since with this outcome you can kill every single Raider in the Pitt (not sure if they re-spawn or not).
There is also the issue of the baby. That baby needs to be in the proper care with the right people. Ashur and Sandra are scientists themselves (as noted by Sandra in dialogue to the player) and the baby's parents. It makes more sense for the baby to stay with her parents, and for them to be alive and taking the proper care of her. Who knows what could happen if the baby was under the care of Wernher and Midea.
To do this outcome, you of course can read the wiki page about this. You must steal the baby and do NOT harm Sandra, kill every single Raider you see that is hostile (since they are the REAL bad guys in this case, always will be), pass the speech check with Wernher to make him leave, return the baby to her parents and show them that it was necessary.
This, in my opinion, leads Ashur and Sandra to understand the need for free labor in the end. Uprisings and riots WILL happen in a slave labor environment. Ashur probably did not really consider this before the arrival of the Lone Wanderer. As for Sandra, any mother should and would feel the same way regardless of what you ever say to her. It's her baby! I can completely understand the way she feels after this outcome. It's the players job to thoroughly apologize and offer what he/she can to better the aftermath. To sweeten the deal afterwards, the least you can do is bring her a teddy bear (there is one right outside the Pitt gates near a bench to the left).
There are really only two bad things about this outcome (no bad karma is incurred at ALL either) and they are the fact that the workers are still slaves, but there's no Raiders there to order them around and abuse them (at least for a while). The other bad thing is that you don't get Ashur's armor from his corpse through normal means (which means killing him from a different outcome). You could always come back and kill him, but this defeats the purpose of this outcome in my eyes. Of course if you are on PC, you can just add the suit with "player.additem xx006852 1" if you really must have it.
This pretty much sums it up. Sorry for the text blockades but after I finished it just now, I wanted to add this input and thourough opinion to the talk page. Thanks for reading. --188.8.131.52 14:10, June 11, 2014 (UTC) Anonymous Wikia Contributor, posting for the greater good
Moral Ambiguity Edit
I get the feeling that there's no "white" or "black" choice here. Do I give the baby to Wernher to dissect, or let the only scientist in the Pitt, who has a vested interest in her daughter's safety, keep her?
On one side, slavery is bad and should be stopped, but at what price? The Raiders seem to do a damn good job of keeping the Trogs out, since I found more dead slaves than Raiders in the Steelyard. Admittedly, that's because it's rare for Raiders to hunt Steel Ingots, but it still shows that they can generally handle themselves. Removing the Raiders could cause the slaves to all get killed, especially since none of the Downtown areas I've been in have any sort of anti-Trog lights.
So the only viable choice seems to be to take the Neutral path, steal the baby but don't kill the mother, then tell Wenher he's nuts and give the baby back. I'm not condoning slavery here, but that seems to be the only path that doesn't feel wrong somehow. --Herley 01:02, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Child Experiments Edit
Why do I have this feeling that newborn babies born by slaves are involved with the mutation cure? :x 184.108.40.206 20:03, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Skipping Free LaborEdit
I found a possible glitch that allows you to skip the quest free labor by talking to Wernher at the entrance as soon as you enter uptown. Wernher will ask for the cure even though you haven't reached haven and talk to Ashur. This also avoids the SPOILERS!!!!!!Revolt --220.127.116.11 17:58, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
if you side with the raiders include access to the Ammo press, VERY HANDY (and the raiders might not be as evil as you think, look around a bit before you make your decision.)--Swizzler 02:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- You also get the ammo press if you free the slaves, as I did my second play. Warll 08:04, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Is there any difference in rewards between the two endings? Either way, it seems you get an ammo press, a the radiation perk, and the ability to give babies teddy bears for cash. I suppose another reward for killing the raiders would be Ashur's armor, but that's more a matter of circumstance. Because there were no differences in rewards, I sided with the raiders, because that meant more unique NPCs to talk to.
Changing your mindEdit
If you take the baby and go to Wherner, you have the option to change your mind (he mentions some "tests" that need to be done). However, since I killed Ashur's wife, when Wherner asks if I think Ashur will welcome me back with the baby, the only dialog options are are a "Forget them" and a "No, since I already killed his wife"
So, did anyone ended the quest without killing the mother? Meaning, did you got the option to change your mind? Since Wherner does not seem a too good moral choice to ally with in the end... Kkmic 08:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I did "change my mind" without killing the mother. The second choice then becomes Ashur will forgive the PC. From there, you either have to kill Wherner or speech check him away like usual. From there, you take the baby back to Haven, and Ashur will be PISSED...but you will be forgiven and you basically get all the stuff and dialogue like you helped Ashur out in the first place except the mother is still PISSED.
The Right ChoiceEdit
I'm having a tough time deciding what to do, I'm playing as a good character. B0B X 21:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
You either sacrifice the baby or the slaves. In the long run, I think helping Ashur is the better good-karma choice, since he'll probably release the slaves once he found a way for his own folks to make non-Trog-Babies. 18.104.22.168 22:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Think about it in the long run , the slaves probally don't know how to function without the raiders. So if the raiders are dead, who will protect the city. Maybe they will be overthrown by another raider group. Ashur is really the good guy since his method benefits all in the long run. They will be able to produce things under his rule. The slaves only want to help themselves. Maybe Ashur will be able to produce new weapons and Power Armor. PitifulKnight 23:11, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
For some people, the "Right choice" is different. Somepeople might want to help Ashur because he's giong to let the slaves free in 10 or so years after they find the cure and they'll be able to rebuild the city. But on the otherhand, that's 10 more years of slavedriving and heartless killing. So it's different for some people. Save the slaves faster or destroy the hope of rebuilding the city. I personally go with Ashur. I could tell that he wasn't really a "bad" guy. He's just trying to get by until he can find the cure and rebuild society.--Ecksplisit 23:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I ended up going with Ashur, well actually I stole "The Cure" at first but brought it back after Wernher told me the rest of his plan. I think that Ashur has some good intentions, but his execution of them is a bit harsh. B0B X 01:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- Ashur is more interested in civilization as a whole, whereas Werhner is more interested in freeing the slaves. It's more of a long-term versus short-term kind of thing. Plus you have to remember, while The Pitt is the best bet for recovery, nobody wants to live there, slaves are the only choice; according to Ashur, that's the only reason they're used. You can believe him or not, but I presume that he's supposed to be honest. Of course, while this shouldn't really affect a real role-playing decision, curing radiation precludes a sequel, ya know? :P 22.214.171.124 06:13, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I played through both sides and in the end I sided with Werhner, because the baby is going to be safe no matter who you side with, the cure is being developed either way, the only difference is whether you want to unleash the trogs on the raiders. Ashur did seem evil to me, he treated the slaves like absolute garbage and didn't mind watching the them fight to the death for his own amusement. I figure Werhner's way is justice and besides who needs the raiders protecting the Pitt when you have the Lone Wanderer? Werhner's dialog at the end suggests that the Lone Wanderer helps with the rebuilding process. --Thq95 10:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
With the raiders dead and trogs now unleashed from their prison at the steel yard, yep it looks like that won't come back to bite them in the butt at all. And the fact that there is no slave scientist sounds like all Werhner's gonna do is dissect the baby hoping to find some magic cure vial. The bottom line is that Werhner didn't want the cure, and he didn't want to free the slaves, those were just perks. His ultimate goal was to seek revenge on the slavers and Ashur for betraying him and turning him into a slave. Does he sound so good now?--Swizzler 15:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Wow, it's amazing to me how many people are rationalizing slavery. You do realize that Ashur is full of shit with his promises, right? If he actually cared one bit about the slaves, then they wouldn't be slaves in the first place and he wouldn't send them to die out in the Steelyard or in the Hole or by the hands of his merciless guards. This is the most morally unambiguous choice, ever. And who is going to protect the city after the raiders are gone? Seriously, do you think the raiders had some special ability to protect or defend? They were just thugs with guns and weapons. Give anyone the same weapons and equipment and they can do just as good a job.--Tonicboy 11:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
If the slaves could protect themselves they wouldn't be slaves, correct? The choice is basically save the people or further the wastes. Because after those slaves are free, they aren't going to stick around an wait for a cure (if marie is even still around by then). They're gonna ditch town and leave one of the best places for development and growth abandoned, to be destroyed by the trogs and lost forever. I didn't want that to happen, even if it meant they had to stay slaves. --Swizzler 17:29, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I'll bet a hundred dollars your great grandfathers were saying the same thing from the porch of their comfy cotton plantations. "Black people would never be able to take care of themselves, or else they wouldn't be slaves, right? We're actually doing them a favor to take care of them like this. They are fed and housed and contribute towards the economy, which is good for the whole country. We're not evil, we're just making tough choices for the greater good." That's some seriously messed up thinking.--Tonicboy 17:48, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
thats kinda hard when my ancestors WERE slaves. i'm done here if he's gonna compare two completely different instances and mock history. --126.96.36.199 18:14, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
- So were mine. "Mocking history" - what in the hell is wrong with you? Any descendent of slaves who can't understand that slavery is always wrong and never justified needs to have their head examined by a shrink to see what's gone wrong in there. 188.8.131.52 08:11, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
To me, espousing any argument which gives any sort of approval at all to the idea of slavery, that's what's most mocking of history. You're right about one thing though, we're done here. You guys stated how you felt and I stated how I felt. Let's just leave it at that.
As I was reading this, I saw the Trogs mentioned a few times. They won't bother the freed slaves because you only shut down the lights to Uptown. Downtown still has all the bright lights, so the Trogs won't enter those areas. Besides, you can just kill them all after they finish off the Raiders like I did.
Some people have mentioned they don't think the slaves have the know-how to find a cure. Isn't that pretty much disproven by the fact that Werhner gives you the Booster Shot after the third quest? Clearly they have some means of formulating a cure if they can do that so quickly. 184.108.40.206 08:41, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
THERE IS NO RIGHT CHOICE!!!!! Because the only right choice would be for the slaves and Ashsur to work together on rebuilding the city and finding a cure. But since thats not an option the right choice does not exist and thats the way they wanted the DLC to be.
I think those who doubt Ashur's sincerity have overlooked the recorded tapes he made to tell Marie his story and about his great ambitions and goals. While it is possible he could be lying to the Lone Wanderer about his intentions, why would he lie on tapes he made purely for his family to listen to when Marie was already nearing adulthood and the cure in her had been discovered? In the end, my "rebuild humanity at any cost" main character chose to side with the formally educated man of vision rather than the former raider goon with a grudge. Even Midea, one of the few idealists among the slave faction, was poisoned by thoughts of simple revenge and cursed my character's "sentimentality" in refusing to kidnap a baby. My character and I both believe the ends justify the means, but having many suffer yet ultimately live is a much smaller sacrifice than to have an individual die.
I highly doubt any of those recorded holotapes found in Ashur's safe is any real evidence of him having everyone's good in mind. The only reason he made those tapes is to convince his daughter he wasn't some kind of monster, which if he was earnest about, there are a lot of things he could have done other than just make tapes saying "Oh hey, I forcefully enslaved a few thousand people, worked them to death, and made them fight in Gladiatorial matches, but I'm not such a bad cat!" I ultimately decided choosing to side with Wherner and the slaves. I think it really came down to the whole "Good person doing the wrong thing for the right reasons." and "Bad person doing the right thing for the wrong reasons." I'm sure Wherner was a total traitor, and this was part of his power play, but his actions are what ultimately set the slaves free. And as mentioned before, obviously the slaves knew enough to make Booster shots, and all the notes of Sandra's research are still in her lab. Regardless, my character ultimately found Ashur's whole "This is for the greater good!" bit to be full of crock. That sort of logic has been used to be justify a lot of messed up things. Ashur's still just convinced he's a God, or some kind of savior. And I figure the slaves will be just fine defending The Pitt. Raider's aren't exactly skilled soldiers or anything, especially when the lot of them got taken out by half-naked slaves with auto-axes.
If Wernher had come clean from the start about what getting the cure entailed, or at least shown some gratitude when you bring him the baby, it would be easier to help him out. Instead, he basically mocks you and starts bossing you around like you owe him something, rather than the other way around. At first I had decided to help him since the raiders hanging out there were the same sadistic scum as back in the Capital Wasteland (but then again, the slaves who managed to work their way up became just as bad, so they weren't really any nobler), but Wernher's two-facedness sealed the deal against him. At least Ashur doesn't beat around the bush with what his goals are or what he wants from you.
It was very simple for me: my allegiance is to the Capital Wasteland, and Ashur supplies the slave and raider organizations out there. I understand fully that Ashur is the more morally sound and decent person, and that Wernher is a petty vindictive usurper, but that's not really helping one cause or the other. One keeps killing the people my "originally just wanted to find his dad but was touched by others' suffering" main character had decided to make his responsibility. Ashur may have indeed let the slaves go, though such a promise is little consolation, but he was still killing the far more progressive members of society just to sustain the bloated corpse of Pittsburgh. His rationale: that the Pitt is producing rather than subsisting, and that it is alone in this quality, is proved wrong by Fallout 1 and 2, and the New Californian Republic did so without building a gory empire. But I'm allowing myself to wander. Civilization will live just fine, if not better, without the Pitt pouring bullets should the slaves fail to sustain their own society. Ashur's method would just be a continued blight on the world.
I was unhappy with both of the apparent choices. But there is a middle choice that I took. Not ideal, but it left me feeling better. You steal the baby. Talk to Sandra, tell her she won't shoot you with the baby. She agrees but says her snipers will take you down. This proves to be optimistic on her part. Don't harm her. She won't attack you without provocation though she draws her sidearm. Exit the building. Kill every raider in uptown. Kill every raider in the Mill. Talk to Midea. Express disappointment at kidnapping baby. Meet Wernher. Give him the baby. Go whoa dude, you didn't tell me there was a baby involved. Listen to him call you a pansy. Listen to second part of his plan. Object to loosing the trogs. Tell him you're going to go make up with Ashur. Pass speech check to convince him to leave without violence. Retrieve baby. Return baby. Listen to Sandra call you an asshole. Talk to Ashur. Listen to Ashur go wtf man, you killed all my dudes, and the slaves revolted, and you kidnapped my baby, but you know what? fuck it, we're still bros. Ask him to free the slaves. Listen to him say no, but will do in the future. THE END. I liked this because I had a hard time siding with slavers against slaves. But I also had a hard time killing the only scientist with a legitimate shot at finding the cure. So I thought it taught Ashur a valuable object lesson about the cost of oppression, leaving the slaves in a better bargaining position. Kind of Magna Carta meets Chinese Assault Rifle. And to RP it out, I can always come back in a couple years to make my point again if need be.
I did the same thing. I liked what Asher and his wife were doing, but hated his method; furthermore, I completly obliterated the slavers in the Capital Wasteland. Werner seemed like a vendictive jackass so all in all I would agree that killing all the scumbag raiders and then returning the baby was the correct choice. Willhel55 01:12, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
another point to be made for ashur, is that he is only condoning the poor treatment of the slaves because the raiders are just that, raiders, they love to cause people pain, and if ashur took that away from them, they would probably revolt against him, he's doing the best he can with the materials he's got, and those meterials are, lets face it, bad people.Katikar 19:05, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
After reading through everyone else's decisions, I feel like I can add a little more rationalisation to lessen the moral ambiguity a bit (... even if I'm three years too late :P ). It seems a great many of you believe in the utilitarian, 'ends justify the means' principle, thereby siding with Ashur. Here's my take, the obvious immorality of slavery aside: 1. Ashur's entire legitimacy to power stems from his notion of restoring and unifying human (or at least American) civilisation. We know that this notion is entirely false, as several competent factions are already firmly rooted as of 2277, like the NCR, New Vegas, Caesar's Legion, the Enclave, the Brotherhood and the Institute. And that's just in the United States alone. If Ashur has been using slavery and raiders to fuel his civilisation for decades (and decades to come), is he any better than any other major factional antagonists presented to us? 2. Some people claim that without Ashur's firm grip and the strength of the raiders, everyone in the Pitt would not be able to survive. There is little canon evidence to support this claim, as proven by the riot and the resourcefulness of certain members of the slave community. Like someone previously stated, if they can kill most of the raiders with just converted factory tools, how badass would they become with actual armour and projectile weapons? Plus, it's implied through dialogue that many of Ashur's army originated from the slaves. There's certainly no genetic 'inferiority' between raiders and slaves (we're all humans ffs!). 3. And going along with point 2., there is the claim that the Pitt would cease to exist along with all its industrial potential. Really, who can blame anyone for not wanting to live in the middle of three heavily irradiated rivers and an industrial zone filled with cannibal mutants? If any of you thinks the Pitt is the pinnacle of restoring civilisation, then you sir/madame/anything in-between are a first-class tart. It's not like the Pitt is the only pre-war industrialised zone in the entire continent, and any technology found within its vicinity is highly unlikely to be a rare find. Sure it has one of the last remaining steel-works, but hell, during World War 2, Stalin managed to pack up 3/4s of his factories from western Russia all the way to the Ural mountains, all within a matter of weeks. So, you know, no sweat at all. And that's not even counting the industrial/agricultural might of the NCR, which renders the Pitt completely arbitrary except as a local power grab. 4. And lastly, there's the argument about how the slaves are going to kill the baby and the scientist mother, making the cure impossible to attain. Assuming the player does not kill her mother, don't you think the baby will be returned and research will continue? And even assuming the baby's mother is dead, she can hardly be considered to be the only qualified scientist left in the wasteland. If Dr. Li can trek from D.C. all the way to MIT alone and on foot, then by Shor's bones there will be someone to find a cure in the Pitt! Who knows, it just might be my INT 10, Science/Medicine 100, wasteland-surgeon-attired master microbiologist/neurosurgeon extraordinaire. :D
Ashur reminds me a lot of Caesar. Both were educated; both found themselves trapped in raider/tribal territories; both were considered gods by the less sophisticated locals, both had intelligent right hands; both built armies by conquering other gangs/tribes, both used a worker slave force; both worked supposedly for the greater good. I think it's safe to assume Ashur's a Caesar in the making. He'll never free the slaves, he'll just keep putting it off saying it's for the best and he'll approach the rest of the wasteland with the same attitude. It's also worth mentioning that the wiki states the Pitt as self-sufficient meaning they have no trade with the outside while the Pitt raiders do mention raiding caravans meaning so far they've had a negative effect on the wasteland. As for the tapes, its obvious Mary was supposed to hear them only in the event of Ashur's death most likely at the hands of slaves. They were there to convince Mary her father wasn't a monster. My individualist ideologies won over me in the end and I sided with the slaves. I realized having the right to stay or leave the Pitt, to not have your life taken at the whim of madmen and to not having to work tirelessly with no reward is worth far more than any greater good. --Chainsaw40k (talk) 07:26, August 5, 2013 (UTC)
The Pitt UndergroundEdit
Is it possible to get the key to The Pitt Underground if you sided with Ashur and convinced Wehrner to leave, instead of killing him? Does anyone know if he goes anywhere in particular, or just plain disappears?
I sided with Ashur and i found the key on a table in Wehrners hideout.
- As far as I can tell, he stays in his hideout. 220.127.116.11 13:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Child at Heart?Edit
Siding with Ashur, I go to speak to Midea to find Werhner's location, and I get a "Child at Heart" dialogue option for her which leads to her giving me Werhner's location because I made her feel guilty about suggesting that I should steal the baby. Why would I get a CHild at Heart dialogue option speaking to an adult? I thought that those special dialogue options only happen when you are speaking to kids? 18.104.22.168 03:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- Probably because the perk gives you some sort of empathy for children, and you are able to instill that empathy into Midea. Something like that. 22.214.171.124 04:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- I understand what you are saying, but the Perk description says it works with children. Period. I cant think of any other place in Fallout where Child At Heart works on an adult. Why didnt they just make it a speech challenge? 126.96.36.199 13:43, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, Midea seems a little young, having been born after the Scourge, and has a childlike nature (being so willful to help the slaves, and following Werhner without question), so that may be it. I don't really understand it either. 188.8.131.52 19:49, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- There is another adult NPC that has a Child at Heart dialogue option but I don't remember who it is. And I guess it kind of makes sense considering the dialogue is about a child. --184.108.40.206 17:20, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
The NPC you're thinking of was the "Mechanist" from the Superhero Gambit quest, you can use the Child at Heart perk to convince him to give you his armor and Protectron's Gaze... Geomexis 04:17, October 28, 2009 (UTC)
I've added a cleanup request due to all the pagelinks on this article, fallout wiki suggests only one link to a page, and every mention afterward does not have to be wikified. --Swizzler 06:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
There I did most of the work myself, According to vault standards, you wikify a word ONCE. Ashur was wikified like eighty times in this article...--Swizzler 16:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Killing the baby Edit
Did anyone else get the strong impression when they first played through that the slaves were planning on killing the baby? There seems to be a lot to suggest this, as if keeping the baby alive was only put in sort of last minute when they realised that it would be a greusome child-murdering ending that might inspire the usual anti-videogame moral outrage.
Indications: 1. Midea says the child will be back with her parents when the uprising is over, which means she is either lying to you, or given that you kill her parents in the uprising, she's being very, very literal. 2. Midea, as mentioned on her page, is probably named after Medea from Greek mythology. While she does help Jason to find the Golden Fleece, she also marries Jason and has two children with him. When Jason leaves her for a greek princess, she then kills their children to take revenge. 3. Wehrner's comments regarding the child suggest he doesn't care at all about its wellbeing, and his description of what he intends to do with the child to get the cure aren't pretty.
While much is made over the moral ambiguity of the choice you make in the Pitt, most of the reasonings I've seen of why siding with the slaves is morally grey revolves around what will happen in the future without the raiders to protect the city. Certainly, if you side with Ashur this is the focus of his argument, and a lot is made in game over why this makes his choice not as bad as it sounds. However, in the game itself, almost all the focus on why siding with the slaves might be wrong is because you're kidnapping a baby. From just before you take her until you hand her over to Wehrner, almost every line of dialogue goes down the "I'm kidnapping a baby, am I doing the right thing?" route, which suggests that this is what the writers wanted us to consider as being morally ambiguous. Ultimately, then, when the baby ends up safe and sound in Midea's hands, that question rings hollow, and given the foreshadowing that the baby was in danger with the slaves, seemed to me as if they had changed the ending from a more brutal one they were originally planning. 220.127.116.11 14:22, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, I kinda got the same feeling, that the slaves are willing to sacrifice the baby in order to obtain the cure. Wernher's comments were really odd. Until that point in the game I sided with the slaves, for their suffering. But when i heard Wherner talk in the end, I really wanted to return the baby to Ashur. Unfortunately, I killed the mother while retrieving it, so I got stuck with Wernher and the slaves.
Sacrificing one person to save many? Doesnt seem to bad. That baby could have grown up to be someone bad. Who knows?
- On the other hand, sacrificing a small group for a short amount of time to save humanity itself? Seems pretty solid to me. The slave leaders have shown to be pretty heartless bastards. Definitely one of the more interesting quests in the game simply due to the massively ambiguous morality.
Another point to be made is that if the slaves kill her to obtain the cure, they may conversely destroy it as any good Doctor would know that without advanced medical equipment they couldn't contain any samples for the long-term basically, unless they find some sort of magic vial, it's quite likely their entire effort was in vain, tis why I sided with Ashur, the one with obviously the most scientific knowledge and the best possible outcome for the Pitt --NewWorldEmperor 00:29, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
I cut huge chunks of text out of this article because it's speculation and too easily argued the other way. Every sentence contains "may appear", "seems to", "implies", "one can assume", "may likely", "would likely", "may simply", "it is doubtful", etc. etc. I'll post it here for the time being, since I'm sure the original author spent a lot of time working on this. 18.104.22.168 20:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- Because the slaves would remain oppressed, deciding to side with Ashur may appear to be the more “evil” ending to the DLC. However, several aspects must be taken into consideration to determine its true moral standing. Firstly, Ashur seems to fully understand how a functional and successful city could operate in the desolate wastleland. Secondly, Ashur implies that once the cure is found he will happily free the slaves and administer the cure to them as well. The only knowledgeable scientist in the Pitt seems to be Sandra, his wife, so one can assume that without Ashur and Sandra working on the cure it may never be discovered at all. Of course there is no guarantee that a cure will be developed, so the slaves may likely remain in bondage indefinitely. Lastly, Ashur and the Raiders are the only form of protection the city has, and without them the Pitt would likely be overrun by scavengers, trogs, or other raiders/slavers eventually.
- Although this may seem to be the “good” ending to The Pitt, a closer look leaves Werhner's true intentions up to speculation. He was once Ashur's second-in-command and attempted to gain power himself, so this may simply be another more underhanded effort towards that goal. Furthermore, Werhner's concern for the slaves’ wellbeing may be entirely disingenuous. At the beginning of Into the Pitt, he shows little interest in the captive slaves near the tunnel entrance beyond their clothes, asking only that the player retrieve a slave outfit to help him kill Ashur. Later, if you side with Ashur for the Free Labor quest, confront Werhner, and pass a speech challenge, Werhner readily accepts leaving the slaves to their fate and flees. If you side with Werhener and complete the quest, none of the slaves appear to be affected for the better. Perhaps they are just trading one Tyrant for another. Finally, it is doubtful that a cure could actually be developed without Sandra and Ashur, as they are seemingly the only Pitt residents with any understanding of complex science.
There are some interesting things here, but I don't believe it belongs mixed with facts about the quest. 22.214.171.124 20:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Having read the article and the discussion page, I would agree that a lengthy speculation on the morality of the choices would be better in the discussion page than in the main article. However, the article may benefit from a brief note that points out the existence of the moral ambiguity, and direct the reader to the discussion page for further reading. The fact that the player does not gain or lose karma for either choice (I think, someone double check) makes this quest quite different from how Fallout usually deals with morality, where good and evil are usually quite clear (even if sometimes they're unanticipated outcomes of previous decisions) and directly correlates with the karma 'reward'. I think this atypical approach to morality in a Fallout game is worth noting in the article, without having to go into lengthy discussions in the article itself. 126.96.36.199 16:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes I agree with the above, I think they changed it from sacrificing the baby to the way it is here, maybe even in the late censorship stage. It is really quite stupid, since you can already kill children in this game, and we see the gruesome results of torture victims all over the game. Still, even without the baby death, I'm siding with Ashur. I see Wernher as making a power play and using the slaves for it. Ashur is no good guy (he is of the Brotherhood after all) but he is better than Wernher.188.8.131.52 09:58, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
ahh... gear? Edit
hmm i finished the quest without getting me gear first can i get it back? where is it? XD
- It's in a trunk right outside The Hole's entrance, next to the locker Faydra directs you to if you say you need equipment. -- Porter21 (talk) 12:35, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
i though it was in ashur's room... the walkthrough aboult this last quest in the pitt confused me i guess..
In a Footlocker.
I know that you are probably thinking "this stupid IP has no clue what they are talking about!" but I have two bugs that have been happening to me 1. after completing the quest the slaves still act as though the riot has yet to happen, some even argue about weather they are going to participate in the riot, and they continue to do their usual miscellaneous jobs, weather its welding a pipe or telling you that you are going to get them in trouble for talking. 2. the other one happens in downtown, after the entire quest is over and the riots have ended right near that little ditch where 4 pitt slaves are working a hostile slave master and a pitt raider spawned both wearing Raider iconoclast armor and Supervisor helmets. As I said I'm not sure if these are bugs or if they are scripted to be like this, in both of these instances I sided with the slaves, and I play on the 360, (just incase that makes any difference)--184.108.40.206 03:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Siding With the SlavesEdit
I noticed that Werhner says that the PC is now the leader of the Pitt if you side with him. Do you get anything for this? Any unique dialogue or anything?
The only thing you get that is different from siding with the slavers is Ashur's armor Five Star Genral Of The Dead BigDog 17:38, 1 August 2009 (UTC) (sign your post)
Avoid Killing Everyone... Edit
My character is kind of, erm, extreme, so I went ahead and killed basically all of the raiders, Ashur and his wife included. The only things that were left were 2-3 raiders (that I missed) and the slaves.
So I go off to find Midea or whatever, all of that takes place, etc, and I release the trogs on uptown. Well. Needless to say, killing everyone was a bad idea since I now had to fight 20-40 trogs. I tried to sneak but one of them saw me and that was the end of that... and the second group sneaked up on me.
Luckily I had 100 in explosives/big guns and I was able to blow them all to bits with a combination of mines and missiles, but not everyone builds their character around being a weapons expert like I do. Should a note be added to the article about this? -- 220.127.116.11 22:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC) (edit, forgot to sign)
- Lol, this happened to me too, I was lev 30 with 10 on each of my specials (thanks to the almost perfect perk and waiting to max to collect bobbleheads) and 100 in all weapon skills, speech, barter, no unarmed, no melee, missing one more too, but all above 75. I killed all the raiders from my last fight into the hole up to ashur, all while encumbered, and any on the way back to Werhner. On the way back the slaves just kinda grouped up around the street in front of Haven, and some were still deciding whether to riot. Werhner asked me if I was gonna go back to Ashur, and I'm thinking "Wanna see his armor?". Anyway, the metal blaster at close range with Grim Reaper's sprint, make it easy, though the trog's fast pounce can be startling, their damage is little. I played on very hard most of the game, and really regret that I leveled too fast... those trogs would be scary as shit if I were lower.
Keep major spoilers out of the walkthrough Edit
Obviously some basic spoilers are unavoidable within a walkthrough, but there's just no need to go into the true nature of the cure within it. If someone is looking through a section labeled "walkthrough" on a page specifically about this mission, there's a good chance they haven't finished it yet, and thus unnecessary spoilers should probably be kept out. Here on the talk page, or in articles about the Pitt as a whole, or especially on character pages and such, these things are fine, even expected, but revealing the truth about the cure being a baby within a walkthrough section on a page about the specific mission in which the player discovers the fact for themselves is just asking to ruin that surprise for people who are using this as a guide as they play. The information obviously deserves to be on this page somewhere, but I think people would be appreciative if it wasn't in a section largely created to help those who haven't yet discovered that particular fact on their own, yet. 23:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Cant stop Trog assault Edit
Although the article says you can go back and talk to Wernher after entering the access tunnel, whenever I talk to him I get 'Quick while the bosses are busy' reply so I cant break the Trog assault, shame really cos Uptown is pretty nice rest stop and fit for the new boss -me.
Where Is My Gear? Edit
I can't find it anywhere and there are 2 markers on my map for the quest. I need to know the exact location!
You can retrieve your gear from a footlocker next to the woman who you talk to to gain access to the arena. Or in other words in the room you prepare for the arena fight.It's in the steelyard.
I'm playing as a bit of a "super-villain" character. He's not intersted in just being an evil jerk-ass or killing people for no reason (which is why I'm almost always in the "neutral" karma range), but he would like to take over the wasteland, by any means necessary. The question is... which ending would fit that goal best? I know that if you side with the slaves and choose the right dialogue, you become the de facto "boss" of the pit, but does Ashur reward you with a position of power if you side with him? --Timzor 00:42, November 6, 2009 (UTC) He does refer to you as an "Ambassador of the Pitt", probably not too much power comes with it, but there is some good in it, and as likely the least moronic of his associates it would be likely that if died or wanted to retire (of course this is out of gameplay element) you would be his successor--NewWorldEmperor 00:33, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
I see. Thanks for letting me know. It's something to consider... sounds like you get more power siding with the slaves. Then again, I'm trying to play a "mad scientist" archetype, and Ashur and his crew seem to be more scientifically minded. Guess I'll have to think about it. --Timzor 23:49, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
It would be extremely helpful if someone would list the rewards from the methods of completion. Fargone Cowboy 18:40, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
these bugs must be confirmed by more than 2 editors before readding to articles. Platforms must be noted as well.
- When speaking with Wernher after kidnapping Maria, male PC may have a Black Widow dialog option to gain supplies for the following stage of the quest line if he has the Lady Killer perk.
- If you begin this quest while in the middle of The Wasteland Survival Guide quest "Test the repellent on three Mole Rats" the Repellent Stick will remain in your inventory during the mission. (this is almost usless because a) the Repellent Stick is a borderline-usless melee weapon against humans, and B, You can acquire the AutoAxe so quickly.)
- Slaves turn invisible after coming out of Haven, having sided with Ashur
--Kingclyde 05:24, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
I have to ask, Cannibalism option? Edit
Okay, so i saw this on youtube. If anyone here follows my posts and stuff, I don't usually fall for bullshit. But this looked pretty legit, so I had to ask. Can you eat the baby and get the perk anyways by means of edible osmosis? Here's the video.
- It says right on the description on the right that it's a mod.
I just made a handful of edits in response to this page's cleanup tag. Any help in cleaning up this page would be appreciated so we can remove the cleanup tag. Sov68n 18:44, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
Where is foremanEdit
After I complete the quest where can I find the foreman and more steel ingots?
After completing the quest line for Free Labor, I crossed the bridge (taking out the sniper up high in the mid-span who was still hostile to me after siding with Ashur), exited the Pitt and returned to find him at his post in the room where the door to the Steelyard is.
Best of Both Worlds Edit
Can you side with Asher, Speech check Wernher as to not have to kill him (Neutral in karma so far) then come back and have access to merchants and then stealth kill ashur for his unique armor without making sandra hostile for the toys unmarked ongoing quest and come out all good? what happens to the named slaves? will they die. As I post this, I'm going to go test this attempted route. I don't like Ashur or anyone who uses slaves in the game (Gutted paradise falls out of requirement. Killed arkansas, ghouls killed the tenpenny tower resident , and i'm not losing karma losing a shop or losing a doctor who I like. (Not slaving flak or red) so yeah... think this will work? (360)
Or, what about killing Ashur when you meet him (telling him you're there to free the slaves!), take the baby without killing Sandra, then change your mind and return the baby to her? Nerva72 21:40, February 6, 2011 (UTC) Nevermind -- I just tried it, and after killing Ashur, evading his wife, and making my way to the rendezvous with Wernher, and trying to back out of the plan, my dialog has me saying I'd killed Sandra even though I didn't -- so the game assumes if you kill Ashur, you also killed Sandra.
It's kinda cheesy to kill Ashur at the end (after siding with him) and leave the DLC's plot messed up, with no leader of the Pitt. It's too bad there isn't a third option where you kill Ashur but back out of the deal with Wernher and seize command of the raiders and the city for yourself. Or a fourth option where you kill them both, shut off the floodlights, and leave the city leaderless and being overrun by trogs. Nerva72 05:54, February 7, 2011 (UTC)
OK, I tried killing Ashur in the initial conversation (telling him I'm there to free the slaves), took the baby but didn't kill Sandra, met up with Wernher. If I talk to him, there's no option to return the baby -- and he becomes unkillable. But if I kill Wernher before talking to him, the quest tells me to return the baby. However, when I return to Haven, Sandra is hostile, and I have a conversation with a headless Ashur's body. Definitely not a recommended option. Nerva72 04:58, February 20, 2011 (UTC)