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==Votes==
 
==Votes==
 
{{Poll|start=10:00, March 29, 2021 (CET)|run for=7}}
 
{{Poll|start=10:00, March 29, 2021 (CET)|run for=7}}
  +
Poll result: 34 votes cast, 24 (70%) in favor, 8 (24%) against, 2 (6%) neutral. Result is ''pass''.
 
 
===Yes===
 
===Yes===
 
# {{yes}} ''[[User:Tagaziel|Tägäżïël]]'' <staff /> 07:24, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 
# {{yes}} ''[[User:Tagaziel|Tägäżïël]]'' <staff /> 07:24, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
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# {{yes}} [[User:New California Ahoy|<font color="#009933">'''''New California Ahoy'''''</font>]] [[File:Bear of the North Star modified.PNG|25px|link=User talk:New California Ahoy]] [[File:Red Star.png|25px]] <sup><i>"[[Special:Contributions/New California Ahoy|<font color="black">Who are you, that do not know their history?</font>]]"</i></sup> 00:51, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
 
# {{yes}} [[User:New California Ahoy|<font color="#009933">'''''New California Ahoy'''''</font>]] [[File:Bear of the North Star modified.PNG|25px|link=User talk:New California Ahoy]] [[File:Red Star.png|25px]] <sup><i>"[[Special:Contributions/New California Ahoy|<font color="black">Who are you, that do not know their history?</font>]]"</i></sup> 00:51, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
 
# {{yes}} [[User:Nonstopmaximum|Nonstopmaximum]] ([[User talk:Nonstopmaximum|talk]]) 02:05, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
 
# {{yes}} [[User:Nonstopmaximum|Nonstopmaximum]] ([[User talk:Nonstopmaximum|talk]]) 02:05, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  +
# {{yes}} [[User:Linygami|Linygami]] ([[User talk:Linygami|talk]]) 10:14, 29 March 2021 (EST)Q('_'Q)
# {{yes}} Q('_'Q)
 
  +
# {{yes}} [[User:Scribe-Howard|Scribe-Howard (waster_93)]] ([[User talk:Scribe-Howard|talk]]) [[File:FO76 vaultboy transparent face.png|20px|link=w00by]] 02:19, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
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# {{Yes}} I am on board with the uses as seen in the recommended terms outlined above. The player and player character should not be used interchangeably, but there are valid situations where the use of one term or the other will be needed. [[User:The Dyre Wolf|The Dyre Wolf]] ([[User talk:The Dyre Wolf|talk]]) 02:59, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
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# {{yes}} [[User:Hexonith|Hexonith]] ([[User talk:Hexonith|talk]]) I don't see why not, makes sense to me [[User:Hexonith|Hexonith]] ([[User talk:Hexonith|talk]]) 03:42, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
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# {{yes}} Agreed with more or less all the above, on the caveat assumption that this project be kept to lowest priority, should it ever arise as an editing project. [[User:NomadicNom|<nowiki>|\|&nbsp;()&nbsp;|\/|&nbsp;/\&nbsp;|)</nowiki>]] | <small>[[User Talk:NomadicNom|Talk]] | <small>[https://discordapp.com/invite/NKCxn4J Discord] | <small>[https://fallout-dallas.wikia.com NMC]</small></small></small> 04:37, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
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# {{yes}} '''[[User:Garwert|<font color="black">garwert</font>]]''' ([[User talk:garwert|<font color="black">talk</font>]]) 08:40, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  +
# {{yes}} [[User:Coldwave001|Coldwave001]] ([[User talk:Coldwave001|talk]])
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# {{yes}} [[User:MHastings|MHastings]] ([[User talk:MHastings|talk]])
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# {{yes}} Always seemed unnecessary to me. <font face= "Comic Sans MS">[[user:DistustingWastelander|DisgustingWastelander]] [[User talk:DistustingWastelander|(talk)]]</font> 04:07, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
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# {{yes}} [[User:Kazeite|Kazeite]] ([[User talk:Kazeite|talk]]
  +
# {{yes}} [[User:The_Warlocke|The_Warlocke]] ([[User talk:The_Warlocke|talk]])
  +
# {{yes}} [[User:Nerdboy193829|Nerdboy193829]] ([[User talk:Nerdboy193829|talk]])
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# {{yes}} [[User:Kendallb9000|Kendallb9000]] ([[User talk:Kendallb9000|talk]])
   
 
===No===
 
===No===
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# {{no}} Here I'm solidarity with Eckserah. [[User:ExplorerSmaily|ExplorerSmaily]] ([[User talk:ExplorerSmaily|talk]]) 16:45, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 
# {{no}} Here I'm solidarity with Eckserah. [[User:ExplorerSmaily|ExplorerSmaily]] ([[User talk:ExplorerSmaily|talk]]) 16:45, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 
# {{no}} Same as Ecks, and I also feel it'll confuse new editors more. [[User:Aiden4017|Aiden4017]] ([[User talk:Aiden4017|talk]]) 22:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 
# {{no}} Same as Ecks, and I also feel it'll confuse new editors more. [[User:Aiden4017|Aiden4017]] ([[User talk:Aiden4017|talk]]) 22:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  +
# {{no}} I hover between no and neutral, I think that player character sounds more immersive, and the third person surrounding it sounds more poised and refined in the writing style. We have NPCs and PCs, this makes sense to me writing-wise. However, I should note that a move to player will be good to support the multi-player aspect of ''Fallout 76'' moving forward, noting several players and moving away from one singular protagonist player character. -[[User:kdarrow|<font color="black">'''''kdarrow'''''</font>]] [[File:Pickman heart.png|17px|link=User talk:kdarrow]] <sup><i>take her for a spin!</i></sup> 19:32, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  +
# {{no}} When I spearheaded those policy changes, my primary concern was that of removing 2nd person PoV in its entirety, and so long as that achieved goal isn't brought back into question, consider me happy enough no matter the result here. In any case, while I see the merits for both sides of the debate here, I find myself learning towards voting no. [[User talk:Old Man Leon|<font color= "Black"> <sup>''寧靜''</sup> </font>]][[File:Fox.png|20px|link=User:Old Man Leon]] 21:58, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
  +
# {{no}} I was in favor of "player" around 2013, but so much work has already gone into people changing it into player character since then and I've grown used to it, let's leave it like this now... And player (the one who plays the game) isn't quite correct as some people have demonstrated here in sentences. [[user:Jspoelstra|Jspoel]] [[file:Speech Jspoel.png|10px|link=User talk:Jspoelstra]] 19:55, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
  +
# {{no}} This seems like a minimal issue to me, on which we shouldn't waste manpower or energy imho. We have lots of other stuff to work on. --''[[User:Findabair|<font face="Apple Chancery" size="3px" color="#2c540c">Findabair</font>]]''[[File:Mini-JSPnP Logo.png|25px|link=User talk:Findabair]]<sup><b><font face="Apple Chancery" size="1px" color="#2c540c">The benefit of the doubt is often doubtful.</font></b></sup> 18:00, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
   
 
===Neutral===
 
===Neutral===
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Not sure how you're going to do this without a overhaul project, because if we just use it going forward new editors will see every page using player character and assume that is what they're meant to be using, assuming they are trying to follow the style of the wiki. If we don't make it retroactive, it will just make newer pages inconsistent with the older ones, which we'll have to deal with eventually, even if you don't want a overhaul project right now. [[User:Aiden4017|Aiden4017]] ([[User talk:Aiden4017|talk]]) 22:45, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 
Not sure how you're going to do this without a overhaul project, because if we just use it going forward new editors will see every page using player character and assume that is what they're meant to be using, assuming they are trying to follow the style of the wiki. If we don't make it retroactive, it will just make newer pages inconsistent with the older ones, which we'll have to deal with eventually, even if you don't want a overhaul project right now. [[User:Aiden4017|Aiden4017]] ([[User talk:Aiden4017|talk]]) 22:45, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  +
:That's a fair point. If there is a decision made to update the guidelines, it would be better that the standard is then applied uniformly. Guidelines are fantastic and need to be outlined clearly, but I would wager a healthy number users will operate based on what they see in practice, not what appears only in the guidelines. That may not be ideal, but it is a realistic outcome to be prepared for. An overhaul project sooner rather than later is not a bad thing. [[User:The Dyre Wolf|The Dyre Wolf]] ([[User talk:The Dyre Wolf|talk]]) 03:39, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  +
::I consider this to be a "target of opportunity" project: Every new article will use these guidelines and old ones retrofitted as we come across them. As for inconsistency, well, we have 40 000 pages created over the span of 16 years, for dozens of titles in various media, in numerous and frequently divergent standards. It's a part of the wiki life.
  +
::Overhaul projects yeah, but I'd prefer for them to be larger scale, if only to focus our work on more than just a handful of things. ''[[User:Tagaziel|Tägäżïël]]'' <staff /> 08:22, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  +
  +
Here's an example of why I don't think this works, from the [[Roger Maxson]] page:
  +
: ''He would have asked the player character to find the bodies of Squires Belmonte and Kerry, and to report their cause of death in the "Brotherhood Terminal."''
  +
If we change this to "player," I find that inaccurate - Maxson does not ask the ''player'' to find the bodies, because the player does not exist in Maxson's world, only the player ''character''. [[User:AllYourFavorites|AllYourFavorites]] ([[User talk:AllYourFavorites|talk]]) 19:41, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
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: I 100% agree with you AYF and chuckled at the thought of me finding the bodies. No thanks. That is the player character's job, not mine! [[User:kdarrow|<font color="black">'''''kdarrow'''''</font>]] [[File:Pickman heart.png|17px|link=User talk:kdarrow]] <sup><i>take her for a spin!</i></sup> 19:49, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  +
::...If I do find the bodies, do I get to keep the shinies in their pockets? [[User:Great Mara|Great Mara]] ([[User talk:Great Mara|talk]]) 01:05, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
  +
:::That would be an instance where the best course of action is to either leave it alone, because that is correct as used, or rewrite the section to something like:
  +
::''He would have asked the [[Vault Dweller (Fallout 76)|Vault Dweller]] to find the bodies of Squires Belmonte and Kerry, and to report their cause of death in the "Brotherhood Terminal."
  +
:::That was one of the things I had pointed out in my example of the Courier from the original conversation. There are times and places where player character is correct and player is incorrect, so it should not be a clean swap in, swap out for every single circumstance as if the two terms mean the same thing, because they do not. The switch will require rewriting sections to accommodate either player or the protagonist name (Courier, Lone Wanderer, etc.), unless it is an instance where player character is the most appropriate term. [[User:The Dyre Wolf|The Dyre Wolf]] ([[User talk:The Dyre Wolf|talk]]) 01:57, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
  +
* I know the voting time is done but I wanted to leave a comment anyway. I am bummed to see this wiki is going to change, I read a lot of gaming wikis and I always thought fallout wiki was unique because they didn’t just write player like halo or pubg or whatever. Because it’s a role playing game and it felt like, true to its roots ya know. Kinda sad seeing it lose that old school vibe throwing in with all the rest, but in the end it’s not a big deal I guess. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents [[User:Hellotalos|Hellotalos]] ([[User talk:Hellotalos|talk]]) 14:27, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:31, 5 April 2021

Forums: Index > Wiki proposals and applications > Vote: Standardized terminology for referring to player/player character

I would like to propose a small change to the editing guidelines, namely, to return to the encyclopedic form "the player" (which is the standard on Wikipedia, to whose Manual of Style we refer in general; see here), instead of the awkward "the player character", which was added in 2013 by Janaschi (I can't find the specific vote where this was introduced).

The term "player character" has several problems:

  1. It's not accurate. The player character is the avatar of the player and it is not making any decisions. Writing "the player character can choose to" is factually incorrect; "the player can choose to" is correct and is an encyclopedic statement of fact, because the player makes the choice.
  2. It's superfluous in cases where it might be used. In situations where we have to refer to the player character itself, we use their name (Courier, Vault Dweller, Sole Survivor, El Dubya etc.), e.g. "The Vault Dweller leaves the Vault in 2161".
  3. It's reinventing the wheel. As stated above, Wikipedia and other major wikis (like Wookiepedia, see here) also use "player", not "player character". Using a different term should not be just for the sake of being different.

"Player" also connects nicely with "they" and allows for avoiding the use of ambiguous "one". "One" namely who? It's a roundabout method of using "the player".

So this is basically a proposal to return to the 2013 "the player" form, which is something that's pretty much the standard for all large wiki projects. Perhaps expanded:

Transcript

Recommended terms:

  1. Player when referring to player activities in the game, such as taking actions in quests, selecting dialogue, or shooting non-player characters in the face: "The player can choose to spare Pretty Boy Floyd or drop a live mine on his head."
  2. Player character or the name of the player character when referring to the actual player character, such as when discussing customization, the character system, or similar: "The player character's appearance cannot be customized in Fallout or Fallout 2 beyond choosing their sex." The name can be used when referring to them as a character in a story, such as when discussing storyline events: "Mr House takes an interest in the Courier after they reach New Vegas after being shot in the head."

The original discussion can be found here: here. I took the liberty of parsing a few comments from there:

That said, over the years it's gotten more and more apparent that using "the player character" is unwieldy and superfluous in every place it's being used. I'm in support of changing it back, but would like to note that this is a pretty big project by itself.— bleep196
There are important distinctions between the player and the player character, so the two should not be used interchangeably.

The surrounding sentence structure is one point which I think determines a great deal of applicability for any term, as what the player character does and what the player does, are connected but functionally different. The protagonists are afforded opportunities to act and are affected by world events, whereas the player determines the choices made when such opportunities are presented but does not carry out the action.

For instance, “the Courier may side with the NCR, House, or Legion.” But the decision is the player’s alone to make, Courier makes no such choice as a necessary story beat or scripted event. So it would be equally correct to say “the player may choose to side the NCR, House, or Legion.” To that end, using player character is not unlike using the protagonist’s name. However, the player name is more specific and we lose nothing by using it primarily. The use of player character contributes to needless confusion, as evidenced by this forum, and in no way benefits us more than simply using the character name.

As outlined above, using player character should only be reserved for instances where it applies to mechanics within the game, such as character customization. Essentially instances where there is a clear delineation between the player and the player character: the player does not alter their own face at a wasteland surgeon, they alter the character’s face.

I would also argue that it aught to be applicable for instances of inventory management such as equipping items or use consumables, and such distinctions, should the guideline be amended, is something that will needed to be considered and codified. Otherwise individual pages a dozen times over turn into smaller battlegrounds as that conversation is had disjointed and likely as a result of contested edits.

Looking at other notable wikis, Dragon Age explicitly uses player and not player character. I would hold that series as an example of one which offer as many opportunities for player choice, if not more, as well as having cutscenes wherein the the protagonist may actually make scripted decisions, independent of the player.
— The Dyre Wolf
I do agree with Tag that there is a distinction between "the player" and "the player character", and it's stupid to remove all uses of "the player". However, I think there's some discussion to be had about which one is appropriate in which cases. I think it all comes down to the perspective our wiki has on the Fallout universe— FDekker

I've also promised an example of how the policy would look in practice. Here's an example:

  • Background uses Chosen One, as it flows neatly and is a summary of the context.
  • Walkthrough uses player when referring to player actions and choices (eg. selecting dialogue options) and player character when referring to elements related directly to the player character (such as getting paid or getting past guards).

To answer User:Gilpo1's concerns: This is not intended to start major projects aimed at correcting every instance of "player character", but simply to establish a guideline for new and old users, wondering how to write in third person. Tägäżïël 07:24, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Votes

Poll result: 34 votes cast, 24 (70%) in favor, 8 (24%) against, 2 (6%) neutral. Result is pass.

Yes

  1. Yes Tägäżïël 07:24, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  2. Yes Key Mace (talk) 07:33, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  3. YesDulogoDigital Utopia (talk) 07:52, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  4. Yes I agree that "player" should be used in all instances where an action or decision being taken by the player is required. The Appalachian (talk) 13:01, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  5. Yes Gilpo1 (talk) 15:05, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  6. Yes LovinglyGaslight (talk) 15:40, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  7. Yes Often found this issue a bit strange, so hopefully this makes things better. Crimson Knight (talk) 16:39, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  8. Yes Devastating DaveZIP ZAP RAP 21:55, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  9. Yes It's hard to write a song with bitter fingers (talk)
  10. Yes New California Ahoy Bear of the North Star modified Red Star "Who are you, that do not know their history?" 00:51, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  11. Yes Nonstopmaximum (talk) 02:05, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  12. Yes Linygami (talk) 10:14, 29 March 2021 (EST)Q('_'Q)
  13. Yes Scribe-Howard (waster_93) (talk) FO76 vaultboy transparent face 02:19, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  14. Yes I am on board with the uses as seen in the recommended terms outlined above. The player and player character should not be used interchangeably, but there are valid situations where the use of one term or the other will be needed. The Dyre Wolf (talk) 02:59, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  15. Yes Hexonith (talk) I don't see why not, makes sense to me Hexonith (talk) 03:42, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  16. Yes Agreed with more or less all the above, on the caveat assumption that this project be kept to lowest priority, should it ever arise as an editing project. |\| () |\/| /\ |) | Talk | Discord | NMC 04:37, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  17. Yes garwert (talk) 08:40, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  18. Yes Coldwave001 (talk)
  19. Yes MHastings (talk)
  20. Yes Always seemed unnecessary to me. DisgustingWastelander (talk) 04:07, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
  21. Yes Kazeite (talk
  22. Yes The_Warlocke (talk)
  23. Yes Nerdboy193829 (talk)
  24. Yes Kendallb9000 (talk)

No

  1. No While as a meta commentary the player is making decisions, in the case of the game world it is the player character that is making the decisions as the player doesn't exist. -Eckserah User Eckserah Head Dataminer 07:34, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  2. No Per Ecks AllYourFavorites (talk) 12:35, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  3. No Here I'm solidarity with Eckserah. ExplorerSmaily (talk) 16:45, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  4. No Same as Ecks, and I also feel it'll confuse new editors more. Aiden4017 (talk) 22:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  5. No I hover between no and neutral, I think that player character sounds more immersive, and the third person surrounding it sounds more poised and refined in the writing style. We have NPCs and PCs, this makes sense to me writing-wise. However, I should note that a move to player will be good to support the multi-player aspect of Fallout 76 moving forward, noting several players and moving away from one singular protagonist player character. -kdarrow Pickman heart take her for a spin! 19:32, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  6. No When I spearheaded those policy changes, my primary concern was that of removing 2nd person PoV in its entirety, and so long as that achieved goal isn't brought back into question, consider me happy enough no matter the result here. In any case, while I see the merits for both sides of the debate here, I find myself learning towards voting no. 寧靜 Fox 21:58, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
  7. No I was in favor of "player" around 2013, but so much work has already gone into people changing it into player character since then and I've grown used to it, let's leave it like this now... And player (the one who plays the game) isn't quite correct as some people have demonstrated here in sentences. Jspoel Speech Jspoel 19:55, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
  8. No This seems like a minimal issue to me, on which we shouldn't waste manpower or energy imho. We have lots of other stuff to work on. --FindabairMini-JSPnP LogoThe benefit of the doubt is often doubtful. 18:00, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Neutral

  1. Neutral I'm fine with either. - FDekker (talk) 08:34, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
  2. Neutral Neutral leaning "yes"; I agree that when discussing things in a meta context (gameplay, quest walkthroughs, etc.) we should use "player" since the "player character" is, meta-wise, an avatar that does nothing unless the player inputs commands and thus cannot be said to have any capacity to make decisions, but I don't really have strong feelings about this matter. - DirtyBlue929 (talk) 17:26, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Excluded votes

  1. Yes misterhaan (talk) User does not meet requirements for voting (no edits or /d posts prior to vote).
  2. Yes Anthony 1l (talk) User does not meet requirements for voting (no edits or /d posts prior to vote).

Comments

Regarding meta commentary: We are supposed to be an encyclopedia and thus accurate, rather than confuse the reader. This is a wiki that covers the subject from a meta point of view, after all. Tägäżïël 12:55, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Not sure how you're going to do this without a overhaul project, because if we just use it going forward new editors will see every page using player character and assume that is what they're meant to be using, assuming they are trying to follow the style of the wiki. If we don't make it retroactive, it will just make newer pages inconsistent with the older ones, which we'll have to deal with eventually, even if you don't want a overhaul project right now. Aiden4017 (talk) 22:45, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

That's a fair point. If there is a decision made to update the guidelines, it would be better that the standard is then applied uniformly. Guidelines are fantastic and need to be outlined clearly, but I would wager a healthy number users will operate based on what they see in practice, not what appears only in the guidelines. That may not be ideal, but it is a realistic outcome to be prepared for. An overhaul project sooner rather than later is not a bad thing. The Dyre Wolf (talk) 03:39, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
I consider this to be a "target of opportunity" project: Every new article will use these guidelines and old ones retrofitted as we come across them. As for inconsistency, well, we have 40 000 pages created over the span of 16 years, for dozens of titles in various media, in numerous and frequently divergent standards. It's a part of the wiki life.
Overhaul projects yeah, but I'd prefer for them to be larger scale, if only to focus our work on more than just a handful of things. Tägäżïël 08:22, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Here's an example of why I don't think this works, from the Roger Maxson page:

He would have asked the player character to find the bodies of Squires Belmonte and Kerry, and to report their cause of death in the "Brotherhood Terminal."

If we change this to "player," I find that inaccurate - Maxson does not ask the player to find the bodies, because the player does not exist in Maxson's world, only the player character. AllYourFavorites (talk) 19:41, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

I 100% agree with you AYF and chuckled at the thought of me finding the bodies. No thanks. That is the player character's job, not mine! kdarrow Pickman heart take her for a spin! 19:49, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
...If I do find the bodies, do I get to keep the shinies in their pockets? Great Mara (talk) 01:05, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
That would be an instance where the best course of action is to either leave it alone, because that is correct as used, or rewrite the section to something like:
He would have asked the Vault Dweller to find the bodies of Squires Belmonte and Kerry, and to report their cause of death in the "Brotherhood Terminal."
That was one of the things I had pointed out in my example of the Courier from the original conversation. There are times and places where player character is correct and player is incorrect, so it should not be a clean swap in, swap out for every single circumstance as if the two terms mean the same thing, because they do not. The switch will require rewriting sections to accommodate either player or the protagonist name (Courier, Lone Wanderer, etc.), unless it is an instance where player character is the most appropriate term. The Dyre Wolf (talk) 01:57, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
  • I know the voting time is done but I wanted to leave a comment anyway. I am bummed to see this wiki is going to change, I read a lot of gaming wikis and I always thought fallout wiki was unique because they didn’t just write player like halo or pubg or whatever. Because it’s a role playing game and it felt like, true to its roots ya know. Kinda sad seeing it lose that old school vibe throwing in with all the rest, but in the end it’s not a big deal I guess. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents Hellotalos (talk) 14:27, 5 April 2021 (UTC)