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This forum's purpose is to vote on the proposal to split perks by game. This will serve as a benefit, allowing perks that have the same name but different gameplay attributes remain independent from one another, similar to other cross-game splits we routinely carry out. It will allow us to maintain succinct game-specific overview pages as well as perk-specific overview pages that describe each game variant.
Background
Perks overall are becoming more complex, and adding another game's worth of information time and time again each has resulted in significant article bloat. The perks are no longer following the same gameplay attributes, despite identical names. Keeping all games from Fallout to Fallout 76 on one page is a disservice to users who are visiting our wiki to find out information on game-specific perks.
As a user, I am personally having a difficult time navigating the pages to find out information on a perk while in-game, and this is what inspired me to make this proposal. Creating more specific articles does not make it more difficult for editors and readers to use them. Having one large, expansive, congested article for identically-named but differing perks across multiple games is proving increasingly challenging to navigate, but it doesn't have to be.
Proposed plan
Once split, infoboxes will be less cluttered and a clean and organized palate will be encouraging to editors who are interested in elaborating on a specific game. As the newest entry in the series has introduced additional levels of complexity to perks by way of legendary perks, implications on plans and crafting, punch card machines, and loadouts, a clear delineation will serve our articles and readers well.
Following discussions in editorial ballpit as well as at the June Meeting of the Minds, I wish to gain consensus by way of a vote. We have several dedicated editors that are able and willing to differentiate these perks and I seek the community's blessing. There is no downside to following our own routine of splitting articles by game, and creating more concise articles will benefit our editors and readers both in ease of use.
Roadmap to tidy perks  |
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-kdarrow
take her for a spin!Vote
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Yes
Our aim should be to make information as easily accessible as possible. Having to rummage through one article for all games is the exact opposite imho. –FindabairThe benefit of the doubt is often doubtful. 08:43, 30 June 2021 (UTC)- Hopeful for the opportunity to help organize and sharpen these articles to be the best they can be, the most accessible and value added for all games across the board. -kdarrow take her for a spin! 08:54, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- You have my Scribe-Howard (waster_93) (talk) 09:28, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Splitting the perks by game allows users to quickly find the information they are looking for. The Appalachian (talk) 09:35, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Consistent and easier for everyone. --Ryon21 (talk) 12:22, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- I want to help with splitting after the vote because I need to learn how please and thank you -darrow 2.0 14:14, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- I understand some of this information may seem redundant for games wirh similar perks, but for users, especially new users, I think a split will make this kind of info much easier to find for those looking for it, bot to mention it will make pages appear far less crowded with info that has to backtrack on itself. —Katy Webb A better future, underground! 15:51, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Slipmcripfist (talk) 02:46, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- I am glad to see this vote happening, splitting perks for 76 is a no brainer at least among the wider 76 community. I have to say that I am pretty frustrated with this situation, I spent about 10 hours total splitting just the 76 Luck perks and adding perk cards to the table on the main page after clearing it with an admin. I went to bed and came back to finish the splits for other games to match like I was instructed to do and saw that the user Jspoelstra had completely undone all my work. They left me a message basically informing me that is what they wanted to do, no conversation or anything. Pretty discouraging, not sure if this behavior is common but I hope this vote means that I can put in the effort and not have to worry about that again. I see a lot of players around discord servers asking why they wiki crams everything into one place, why all these things aren't split, the same with SPECIAL stats which are a mess. I know that a lot of players aren't even coming to the wiki anymore, they are all using nukes &dragons instead to do builds, find info on perks, consumables etc. I think if we split everything and get them organized it would be actually pretty useful and along with the other info, could be the one stop shop for people again. Here's to hoping. Hellotalos (talk) 15:13, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- I agree, information on this wiki should be as easily accessible as possible, so why not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by FalloutFan777 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!
- User:Honorguard99 I would enjoy a cleanup,but if a perk is effectively the same ,it should be on the same page (examples being toughness is very similar in every fallout to my knowledge) ,unless it differs heavily from other versions (example Commando being the same for FO3 & NV but differs from the FO4 & 76 version)
- Currently it's very confusing and the pages are a mess. Some of this is due to half-way finished projects and reverts, and the other half was preexisting. Splitting would allow game-specific perk images as well as tailored gameplay info and perk and build synergies. I don't know much about the earlier games, but Saxhleel's comment below should be thoroughly evaluated and a solution discussed. Gilpo1 (talk) 20:00, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
- Can't think of a compelling reason why not. Crimson Knight (talk) 21:30, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
- -Eckserah Head Dataminer 21:54, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
- I have personally encountered some truly nightmarish pages where I can't tell which of the 20 games listed on the page are related to the list of bugs at the bottom of the page. Is it a New Vegas bug? Fallout 4? Who knows. If we split things like creatures and robots, perks absolutely need to be split. intrepid3594/19/24 [3:06am]
- I see no downsides to splitting perks, especially if many community members are willing to make the changes. I feel that making the layout more simple will make the experience more user friendly for people who are new to this platform. I myself am quite new, but depending on how difficult it is to implement the new perk splits I may also help. User:Zeusisadog 23:03, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with this entirely. Sure for perks that are functionally similar between games we'll have some repetition, but it's better than having it all cludged onto one page. Aiden4017 (talk) 04:07, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
- Currently, information about "fresh" games is placed at the end of articles, this is not very convenient. Why force people to read what they don't need? What happens after the release of Fallout 77, Fallout 78, etc.? --FunGorn (talk) 17:40, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
- I am not a fan of the shared pages for many things, perks included. Minor differences are still very much differences, and considering we have afforded so many items their own pages, it is jarring to then see so many of the stats pages sharing these needlessly convoluted pages, cramming multiple games' worth of information together. The Dyre Wolf (talk) 03:43, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- I realize I'm a casual user of this wiki, as well as a casual Fallout player. Thing is, FO4 is the only game I'm playing, and it's more convenient for me to stick to FO4-related stuff. Coldwave001 (talk) 06:30, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- Seems like it could be very useful. User:ElviraKim 17:12, July 4, 2021 (UTC)
- GudyGudy (talk) 19:04, July 4, 2021 (UTC)
- As someone who got into the Fallout games more recently, being able to look up a perk for the specific game I want information for would be extremely helpful. If I'm only familiar with one game, or only want information about a perk from one game, I shouldn't be required to look through varying information about the other 5 games in the series. It would be far too confusing for newer players, and too tedius for more experienced ones. TheEpicOshawott (talk) 20:57, 6 July 2021
No
- I agree with the concept of this, but cannot vote yes based on current wording of the proposal. The perk systems in Fallout 3 and New Vegas are nearly identical. To use the perk used here as an example of how the proposal works, Fortune Finder, there is only one difference between how it function between the two games. They have the same requirements and they have the same effects, except in New Vegas it has an additional effect if you have a DLC installed, that's all. Many perks between those games have minor or absolutely no difference. So unless F3/NV perks will share a page (I assume as F1/F2 will do?) I see that aspect of this proposal actually complicating the issue, not fixing it. Saxhleel12 (talk) 15:05, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- --ExplorerSmaily (talk) 21:41, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
- Per Saxhleel. Nonstopmaximum (talk) 06:51, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
- 异尘余生 (talk) 11:30, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Neutral
- I have never had a problem using the table of contents or browsing the infobox to easily get info about the specific game I am looking for. In fact, I actually think weapon/armor/whatever else pages should mirror perk pages (if possible) as I've had multiple times where the specific game I am looking for is cut off in search results until I have already typed practically the entire page name. For example, if you wanted to search for Fallout 4 combat armor, you would need to type "Combat Armor (F" into the search box before it appears, at least on my end. An overview page would essentially do the same thing a table of contents does already, but unnecessarily add extra clicks and pad page counts. Sigmund Fraud (talk) 14:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- I was leaning towards yes but Sax makes a good point. Some perks function virtually the same in multiple games, and it would be a bit jarring to have two nearly identical pages. I do think its better for some perks with few to no differences to just stick to a single page. Branebriar1930 (talk) 16:45, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Haven't seen anything that bad of an issue with either route. |\| () |\/| /\ |) | Talk | Discord | NMC 00:08, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that changes should be made to the perks pages for easier navigation. However, as people have stated above perks with no or minor differences should share pages. Icons or # could be used to show this page is shared between multiple games. Making it easier for newer players is ideal but there is no need to create more work than necessary. AdvancedSavior 14:20, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know. First have to see a concept how an overview page looks like, and I'm worried pages not being strong enough to stand on their own. It's a massive undertaking I feel would be more fitted to take a look at in a time past Fallout 76. You can't use a bot fixing the links, you have to do it manually, updating the link to the correct game on each page. I'd rather postpone it. Jspoel 17:38, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
- Jinau (talk) 10:23, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
- DynV (talk) Saxhleel12 make a compelling point. If the vote win, I hope the new system take this into consideration; ie: NAME (Fallout 4), NAME (Fallout 3 & Fallout: New Vegas).
Excluded
- intrepid3594/19/24 [3:06am]
- Scribe-Howard (waster_93) (talk) 06:10, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Comments
What does an overview page for the perks entail exactly? Would this just be a disambig with a different name or will it cover the perks with a short description as they appear in each game? Devastating DaveZIP ZAP RAP 04:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
- I would like to see something more akin to disambig. If we open the door to editor-written descriptions, we open the door to speculation. -kdarrow take her for a spin! 06:43, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- I'd prefer an actual overview and how the perks are balanced and re-balance from game to game and how mechanics changed with the switch from isometric to first-person. This was kind of done on the Vault too - in an entire different way using subpages which I don't want to emulate - where the overview provides a short description about how the perk functions/changed from game to game. Also not sure what there's to speculate about? Perks are pure gameplay and game code is about as solid as you can get. Devastating DaveZIP ZAP RAP 21:58, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- Additionally, the overview article would still get to use Scribe's image tabbing he made for the perk template, which I think would be a waste to completely remove if we're doing a glorified disambig. Devastating DaveZIP ZAP RAP 22:00, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- I'd prefer an actual overview and how the perks are balanced and re-balance from game to game and how mechanics changed with the switch from isometric to first-person. This was kind of done on the Vault too - in an entire different way using subpages which I don't want to emulate - where the overview provides a short description about how the perk functions/changed from game to game. Also not sure what there's to speculate about? Perks are pure gameplay and game code is about as solid as you can get. Devastating DaveZIP ZAP RAP 21:58, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
In reference to J's voting rationale above, I would argue we cannot view Fallout 76 as we could past games, where its lifespan could be used to post pone a project. When 76 ends could be sometime next year or sometime next decade. As a service model game and a M(ini)MO, it's likely to continue for as long as it is profitable, which is information we are not privy to. With the influx of new editors and staff, who are all very interested in participation in large projects, one like this, it is better to do it now, than hope such interest exists later...again worth mentioning, there is no indication as to when "later" would be. And the barrier to entry in the project is going to be quite low, presenting something that is more monotonous than demanding of skill or technical know how. The Dyre Wolf (talk) 03:50, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- Good points, Dyre. This is a project that could really benefit our TVA advanced editing students, as splitting/merging is part of the curriculum. If we have the interest, energy, and momentum, its a rare moment in time that we shouldn't hold anyone back from. Strike while the iron is hot and all that. -kdarrow take her for a spin! 06:43, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- I agree. Fallout 76 is on a 10-year plan. Waiting until 2028 to fix the problem is 10 years too late, in my opinion.
- intrepid3594/19/24 [3:06am]
Result
The majority is in favor, so it's planned to pass. However, the bureaucrats first want to see an overview page which everyone can agree with and can be used as a template, and a perk page split by game. I suggest Kate does that, as she set up this forum. Jspoel 
18:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
