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Forums: Index > Wiki discussion > Discussion: Reference policy addendum 1.1
FO76 Quest Fauna.png

The discussions below focus on three addendum proposals to the reference guideline policy. Hearing support, the following will move to a community vote reflecting applicable feedback. Thank you for your time in reviewing the following addendums. -kdarrow Pickman heart.png take her for a spin! 23:18, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Addendums

I. Streamline game guide refs

Propose to streamline format of game guide references, currently contains unnecessary wiki markup and duplicate links. Request to remove extra quotation marks, italics, and bold markup for the subject, remove page break after subject, remove double linking, and add a precise navigational anchor to link.

Comparison
Current Proposed
''[[Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide]]'' Collector's Edition p. 45: ''"'''EQUALITY "'''''<br />''"By law, the NCR prohibits persecution and discrimination on the basis of gender, ethnicity, sexuality, or religious belief."''<br />(''[[Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide]]'' Collector's Edition)
''[[Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide#Equality|Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide Collector's Edition]]'' p. 45: ''"EQUALITY: By law, the NCR prohibits persecution and discrimination on the basis of gender, ethnicity, sexuality, or religious belief."''
Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide Collector's Edition p. 457: "EQUALITY"
"By law, the NCR prohibits persecution and discrimination on the basis of gender, ethnicity, sexuality, or religious belief."
(Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide, Behind the Bright Lights & Big City)
Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide Collector's Edition p. 45: "EQUALITY: By law, the NCR prohibits persecution and discrimination on the basis of gender, ethnicity, sexuality, or religious belief."

II. Set guidelines for dialogue notes

Propose change and clarification of guidelines for note section following dialogue references. Changes proposed include removing unnecessary small template and bold markup. Clarification of what is appropriate for note. Appropriate use for dialogue lines that are location or companion based, note should be succinct. Inappropriate use includes speculation, claiming narrators unreliable, game year math justifications, content that is not navigational in nature.

Examples of use
Current Proposed
1 Courier: "Do you have any other family in the Brotherhood?"
Veronica Santangelo: "Just my parents, but they haven't been around for a long time. They died in the same battle trying to hold off the NCR from something."
(Veronica's dialogue) Note: Veronica was likely born in the mid 2250s and states she was brought up by the Brotherhood, indicating her parents died in her early childhood, which pins the earliest known instance of NCR-Brotherhood hostility in the 2260s range.
1 Curie: "I read that the Corvega Blitz is quite economical and family friendly. But, not so much any more."
(Curie's dialogue, spoken at Corvega assembly plant)

III. Codify FO76 dialogue file format

Previously reached consensus at Meeting of the Minds. Dialogue files of Fallout 76 are not .txt or .msg files. Dialogue should be imported as a subpage of the character file, not a separate article. This will assist in navigation, linking, and increase our accuracy in representing file types. The scope of this proposal at this point is Fallout 76 only.

Comparison
Current Proposed
[[NPCM EN02 MajorRagnarsdottir.txt|Ragnarsdottir's dialogue]]
[[Ragnarsdottir/Dialogue]]

Discussion

Addendum I

I'm fine with either, though I think wiki markup makes the heading stand out more. I prefer a singular link, but it should point to the correct location (which is not the case in either example. In this case the link would be Fallout:_New_Vegas_Official_Game_Guide/Behind_the_Bright_Lights_&_Big_City#Equality). Sigmund Fraud 01:54, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the linking and the code were probably done in a hurry, hence the inconsistencies - the code speaks of page 45 for both, yet the current version shows page 457. I will shoot Kate a DM about this.
FindabairMini-JSPnP Logo.pngThe benefit of the doubt is often doubtful. 13:49, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Fin is correct, it was just an example. I’ll polish it up for the vote. -kdarrow Pickman heart.png take her for a spin! 14:09, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I prefer something more like example one but without the bottom part in parentheses. It would reduce the number of lines used by 1, and in this case character count by about 21%. I've been using a formatting like this for Fallout Bible refs.

''[[Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide]]'' Collector's Edition p. 457: ''"'''[[Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide/Behind the Bright Lights & Big City#Equality|EQUALITY]]"'''''<br />''"By law, the NCR prohibits persecution and discrimination on the basis of gender, ethnicity, sexuality, or religious belief."''

Slipmcripfist (talk) 07:16, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I actually like this one, we have a general link to the source, and a specified link to the topic.
FindabairMini-JSPnP Logo.pngThe benefit of the doubt is often doubtful. 13:49, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
I agree with Fin, I love this, it is actually a much cleaner version. I think we should move forward with it instead honestly. -kdarrow Pickman heart.png take her for a spin! 14:11, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Addendum II

If one can use arithmetic to adequately justify dates of something based solely from concrete dates of other items, more power to the editors. Similarly, if a character is unreliable (proven through contradictory claims or other characters labelling them as such), that should be stated somewhere on the wiki. I would prefer a note on that character's page rather than in references made by them, however. Sigmund Fraud 01:54, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

The thing is, many existing dates and ages given cannot adequately be justified. This is a recent example, where I removed a character's age. The source for it was the NPC's mom saying that her daughter is "about the age" of the Lone Wanderer - which for someone in the past translated as "She is clearly 19 then." - despite being a rough estimate, even more so, since the LW never told the mom their age in dialogue. This is just one example of numberwang, there are many more to be found. But I digress.
I agree with the rest, if there is a solid source for dates/a character's age, we definitely should list it. The same goes for sources contradicting one another, those cases are worth a note - obviously with games taking precedence over sources from other media.
FindabairMini-JSPnP Logo.pngThe benefit of the doubt is often doubtful. 13:49, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Noting information on character pages is a little different than the scope of this addendum, which is just the current practice of adding a note following dialogue reference. Character pages or information therein isn’t impacted by this. -kdarrow Pickman heart.png take her for a spin! 14:14, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Addendum III

If they are not .txt or .msg, what are they? And where does the "NPCM EN02 Major..." portion of the current example come from? If these are all helpful, they should be included somewhere, even if it's in some BTS section at the bottom of the page. It helps readers and editors understand from where exactly the dialogue was found. Sigmund Fraud 01:54, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

From my understanding (which may be limited) there hasn't be a .txt or .msg for dialogue since FOBOS or tactics, each dialogue choice is stored separately and they just "point" to each other in the code. The names used by character in that are their Editor ID as shown in the game files.Slipmcripfist (talk) 07:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
That is honestly one of the bigger wiki mysteries, makes me wonder if at one point someone wrote a script to extract dialogues into a .txt file?
As for the question, dialogue lines are associated with scenes, which are scripted interactions between characters, usually managed through a quest node in the master file (.esm) - to the best of my knowledge. Since we list Editor IDs separately in the infobox, loosing them as part of the dialogue title is not really an issue, at least in my opinion.
FindabairMini-JSPnP Logo.pngThe benefit of the doubt is often doubtful. 13:49, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I lean more towards the proposed version since there isn't a .txt and saying there is misrepresenting how the game files work and is probably just carried over from the old games when it was formatted like that.Slipmcripfist (talk) 07:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Same here, I think we should generally replace all the existing dialogue .txt with the /Dialogue format, for the sake of consistency. I think I saw Jsp already doing that, updating those for some older games, as well as using the format for new FO76 dialogues.
FindabairMini-JSPnP Logo.pngThe benefit of the doubt is often doubtful. 13:49, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
I agree that it seems the naming convention was a holdover that was never updated, and that it should apply to all games. My bot is able to handle link changes, Jspoel and I have already been doing so. The information from esm is already included in the imported data itself. This addendum is more of a format change and not functionally changing anything we already do. -kdarrow Pickman heart.png take her for a spin! 14:18, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Result

I have taken feedback from the forum and polished into draft form, the vote for which is found here. -kdarrow Pickman heart.png take her for a spin! 18:57, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Another draft was created and brought to a vote here. -kdarrow Pickman heart.png take her for a spin! 00:18, 31 January 2022 (UTC)




Policy vote forum overview
GuidelineReference formatting guideline
Proposal discussionDraft: Reference guidelines
Proposal voteVote: Basic reference formatting guidelines
Date and result8 December 2020 · 14-1-1
Amendment 1Developer statements · Discussion · Vote · 10 November 2021 · 12-0-0
Amendment 2Publications and dialogue · Discussion · Vote · 10 February 2022 · 11-1-0
Amendment 3External links · Discussion · Vote · 22 March 2022 · 10-0-0
Related topicsDeveloper statements · Dialogue · Holotapes and notes · Publications · Terminals and images
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