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Forums: Index > Wiki proposal votes > Deleting Torn and Lionheart Pages


At first glance, a lot of you probably won't understand why Lionheart and TORN are in the title of a forum post on a wiki about Fallout. Many of you likely don't even know what they are. To put it (extremely) simply, they are video games...video games with pages on this wiki. The wiki about Fallout. There is one reason these seemingly irrelevant games and derivatives have pages on this wiki: they use the SPECIAL system. That is the absolute only reason that I know of as to why they exist. Personally, I feel as if all these pages are wholly unnecessary, as this is the "Fallout Wiki", not the "Fallout and SPECIAL Wiki". I have honest doubts that these pages have ever been visited in the last year. Personally, and the point I'm trying to get at is, I don't think these pages deserve to exist on this wiki. It irks me to no end having worthless pages devoted to these items that have no connection to Fallout, and I believe we should just remove all of the pages from the wiki.

List of Related Pages

*[[Lionheart]]
**[[Lionheart derived statistics]]
**[[Lionheart perks]]
**[[Lionheart primary statistics]]
**[[Lionheart skills]]
**[[Lionheart traits]]
*[[TORN]]
**[[TORN perks]]
**[[TORN primary statistics]]
**[[TORN skills]]
**[[TORN traits]]


- Sigmund Fraud Talk Contributions 20:16, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

Opinions

I'm 100% for the deletion of these pages - especially removing them from the perk pages - but I think we should also change the rule about "Fallout and SPECIAL Wiki" to just "Fallout wiki". I doubt anyone would actually go to bat about putting more stuff on here that only uses SPECIAL, but might as well pull the root of the problem out while trimming everything else. Devastating DaveZIP ZAP RAP 20:30, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with that. I did some snooping through older forum posts about the subject and it seems that the only thing keeping anyone from deleting the pages is because the almighty Policy states that this wiki covers SPECIAL content as well as normal Fallout content. In that case...let's just amend the damn policy like sensible people instead of pussyfooting around the issue that most people agree should change anyways. Consider this post a discussion on both matters. Don't bring up the fact that the policy exists. Bring up reasons why we should or should not change the policy (or wiki name) to more accurately reflect the wiki's contents and thoughts of its editors. - Sigmund Fraud Talk Contributions 20:53, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
I was writing a response that said essentially the same thing when you dropped this, hah. I agree with you and Dave fully. I wouldn't mind keeping the TORN and Lionheart pages themselves, just as a mention of the SPECIAL system, but their coverage in perks, traits, skills, etc. should go away. The specific wording of the "loophole" that lets this happen is on the content policy page: All content should relate to the Fallout series of games, its setting or the SPECIAL character system. Like you said, the process we should follow is amending that policy to remove "the SPECIAL character system" from it and then deleting those Lionheart/TORN pages. AllYourFavorites! (talk) 20:58, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
I would even go so far as having only a single "Other Games Using SPECIAL" or something like that with Lionheart and Torn and short descriptions. I believe there are other games that use the system than just those two, but not many. The descriptions for each game can literally be just a main header with each game and then practically copy-paste the existing page there. I don't imagine there's so much information on them to make that impractical. - Sigmund Fraud Talk Contributions 22:02, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
I find it comparable to Elder Scrolls, and if they had a "player picks a perk every time they level up" page for every Bethesda game, it would be full of useless articles. As an editor, it's frustrating when you're doing maintenance and suddenly Torn or Lionheart comes up. We can't be sure of the future, but what are we supposed to do when a perk comes along with the same name as a Torn/Lionheart one? It's something to really consider. Kittybright (talk) 22:43, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
Putting my hat in for deletion as well. I understand why they were added, since the SPECIAL system was designed primarily for Fallout and has only seen use outside the series in those two games, which is notable, but there's no reason for us to document them in this much detail. A single section on the SPECIAL page explaining that it was used by Interplay in two other games is all that's necessary. --DirtyBlue929 (talk) 23:33, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

I'm down with axing them for basically all the reasons you and others have outlined. The Other games using SPECIAL page sounds like a good compromise if people are leery of deleting the content entirely. --L84tea Tea kettle.pngWould you like a cup of tea? 04:56, May 24, 2020 (UTC)

The connection these two games have to Fallout is tangential at best, and wanting to cover them at length seems akin to saying we should cover information for Skyrim, since it uses the Fallout lock-picking minigame. These games should not have a spread of links to a dozen near empty pages which could be easily condensed down or removed. Even Wasteland, a game with a significant number of ties to Fallout and a more directly connected history, is limited to a single page on wiki. There is no reason TORN and Lionheart should be given a larger profile. I have no argument against outright axing the information. Unlike Wasteland, we cannot simply link to a sister Fandom wiki for the games, but there are at least wikipedia articles for each game that we can link to if needed. Might it mean information lost? Perhaps, but we are a Fallout wiki and not an orphanage for dead games. If anyone believes we should be, they are free to contribute to or start such a wiki elsewhere. I would be just as happy with an "Other games using SPECIAL" page as I would taking it a step further and limiting the two games to being footnotes on the SPECIAL page. The Dyre Wolf (talk) 18:42, May 25, 2020 (UTC)

These pages should be moved to their own wiki.--Ant2242 (talk) 21:14, May 28, 2020 (UTC)

There is now a fledgling wiki started for Lionheart, anyways (https://lionheartlotc.fandom.com/). Torn was cancelled, so I do not foresee it ever getting a wiki. Maybe archive the pages here somehow? - Sigmund Fraud Talk Contributions 21:34, May 28, 2020 (UTC)

Vote

In order to actually pass this resolution, I suppose we need to formally put it to vote. Here ya go.

Yes - Delete the pages

  1. Yes - Sigmund Fraud Talk Contributions 21:12, May 28, 2020 (UTC)
  2. Yes I'm also for deleting the game's pages and just segregating them into "Other games that use the SPECIAL system" as well. Devastating DaveZIP ZAP RAP 21:16, May 28, 2020 (UTC)
  3. Yes AllYourFavorites! (talk) 21:16, May 28, 2020 (UTC)
  4. Yes Interfering with the name of the Retribution perk card in 76. Not happy馃槨 --DankalorYT 21:35, May 28, 2020 (UTC)
  5. Yes (New California Ahoy (talk) 02:08, May 29, 2020 (UTC))
  6. Yes We can add an external redirect similar to the Wasteland (game) page (not sure why there is a redirect and an article now that I look at it). Maybe there are a few more similar things that we can direct to their own wikis while we are at it. I am sure the people at those wikis would appreciate sending any traffic their way. -Kate (Kdarrow (talk) 02:26, May 29, 2020 (UTC))
  7. Yes Non-Fallout content is best left on other wikis, not the Fallout wiki (for obvious reasons). Even though they use S.P.E.C.I.A.L., they're still not Fallout. CamelChip (talk) 02:50, May 29, 2020 (UTC)
  8. Yes DirtyBlue929 (talk) 04:35, May 29, 2020 (UTC)
  9. Yes L84tea Tea kettle.pngWould you like a cup of tea? 04:43, May 29, 2020 (UTC)
  10. Yes Probably just best to have a single "Other games that use SPECIAL" page that links to the TORN and Lionheart wikipedia pages (Or respective wiki as applicable, like with Wasteland) LovinglyGaslight (talk) 05:29, May 29, 2020 (UTC)
  11. Yes At most I'd keep a single page listing the Lionheart perks as an example of SPECIAL use in other titles. Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 07:35, May 29, 2020 (UTC)
  12. Yes The Dyre Wolf (talk) 08:21, May 29, 2020 (UTC)

No - Keep the pages

Neutral

Excluded

No Keep. |\| () |\/| /\ |) | Talk | Discord | NMC 21:12, 24 December 2020 (UTC) User voted on closed vote months afterwards to nonsensically prove a point.

Comments

I have never understood the antipathy that the veteran users of this wiki has towards content that's not strictly covering Fallout. If we remove Torn/LIONHEART content from the wiki, then their coverage becomes essentially non-existent - and while that's not necessarily our problem, there's also no harm in the ideal that Nukapedia can become more inclusive of content that has a correlation with Fallout.

We have no limit on the amount of pages we can have on this wiki, and providing information over spiritual successors/predecessors, sister games, and even curios has no adverse effect on us, as both a wiki and a community, whatsoever. With wiki editing becoming more and more niche, our editing community has objectively dwindled since FO3/NV, and my stance is simply that we should consider branching out rather than focusing on a singular and tunnel-visioned doctrine that may not exactly be doing us any long-term favours. 瀵ч潨 Fox.png 20:03, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

As I mentioned in my last pre-vote comment, Lionheart now has its own wiki. It's only $10 and it doesn't sound like too bad of a game, so I might actually pick it up and edit that wiki at some point. So covering Lionheart is a moot point. Tornn on the other hand was cancelled, so it's unlikely to ever get its own wiki. If it's possible, I'd recommend archiving the page here, either through an external archive database or by removing the pages from the mainspace and relocating them to their own special categories or to a specific users' subpages. Regardless, though, I do not think either game should be in the mainspace of a wiki dedicated to entirely different games. - Sigmund Fraud Talk Contributions 20:15, June 7, 2020 (UTC)

Result

The pages will be deleted. I'd say create a page "Other games using SPECIAL" and move what's left of the Lionheart/TORN main pages (more or less the infoboxes) to here, with redirects. Perks and traits needs to be removed from joint perk/trait/statistic/skill pages with care. Jspoel Speech Jspoel.png 20:13, June 7, 2020 (UTC)




Policy vote forum overview
PolicyContent policy
Amendment 1General/specific rule & BTS speculation 路 Vote 路 30 December 2014 路 11-1-0; 9-3-1
Amendment 2Countries articles standard 路 Discussion 路 Vote 路 2 August 2015 路 16-3-2
Amendment 3Attribution 路 Vote 路 27 August 2015 路 13-0-0
Amendment 4Creation Club content 路 Vote 路 25 September 2017 路 23-3-0
Amendment 5Creation Club article placement 路 Vote 路 25 October 2017 路 15-5
Amendment 6Creation Club on mainspace 路 Discussion 路 Vote 路 20 March 2018 路 15-5-2
Amendment 7Deleting Torn and Lionheart 路 Vote 路 7 June 2020 路 12-0-0
Related topicsContent organization guideline 路 Article layout guideline
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