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Currently on Nukapedia we have articles for individual countries (e.g. Greece, Romania, Ireland). As it stands these articles consist primarily of a summarized paragraph of the country's history. This information in itself is not relevant to the Fallout Universe and can be readily obtained from sites such as Wikipedia.

These pages also contain small tid-bits of information regarding in game mentions, a majority of which do not directly reference the country but reference some aspect of its history or culture even a company that exists within this country.

Information about a company's country of origin should be on that company's article page and not on a page dedicated to the country itself. Especially if that country's page exists for the sole reason of hosting that information.

Mentions of a countries language, such as french in Cherchez La Femme, should take place on either the page of the character/location/faction that utilizes it or on the page of the perk/weapon/item.

For this reason I would like some help in formulating a new policy. The policy aims to make it clear when an article about a country should be created and what information the article should contain.

I personally believe that an article about a country should not be created unless a historical in-game/in-universe event takes place either within the country itself or effects the country in such a way that it is significant to the Fallout universe.

Things that would be significant are as follows:

  • A prominent faction exists within the country
  • A prominent civilization exists within the country
  • A conflict or other major event is taking place within the country
  • A conflict or other major event has taken place within the country in the Fallout universe
  • The character in game is currently residing within the country or can travel to the country itself.

And of course I would like to hear feedback/suggestions/criticism and even drafts of a policy.

Shining-Armor (talk) 19:35, July 18, 2015 (UTC)

Commenting rules

When commenting I ask that you follow my indentation scheme and use level 3 headings when creating new points.

=== small description ===

All replies need to be separated from the one above it with a newline.

I also ask that you separate all new lines with a line break.

In addition your signature needs to be on its own line and at the same indentation level as your post.

Discussion

Administrative note

Since there are a number of deletion tags spread across multiple articles right now for the same reason, I would ask that editors please condense their conversation here, so that it can be concise and coherent. The deletion tags will stay up on the articles until such time as this is hammered out here, and the articles will not be deleted until this is done.

 The Gunny  UserGunny chevrons.png 19:39, July 18, 2015 (UTC)

I will go to each of the talk pages and add a not directing the deletion conversations here.
Shining-Armor (talk) 19:41, July 18, 2015 (UTC)

The Articles Are Here for a Reason

Seeing as the Fallout world diverged from our own shortly after World War II, the wikipedia articles are irrelevant to the Fallout universe. The pages are here for a reason, and I suggest that as long as they have been mentioned in some form they should stay.

Of course, I'm not an administrator. Am I allowed to speak here?

"Space. The final frontier." ~The-Artist-64 (talk) 19:43, July 18, 2015 (UTC)The-Artist-64

Of course you're allowed to speak. I hope others will as well. Thank you for leaving your viewpoints.
 The Gunny  UserGunny chevrons.png 19:54, July 18, 2015 (UTC)
The articles are only here because someone created them. Just because they were created does not under any circumstances mean that they are relevant.
The Wikipedia articles are completely relevant as the exact information on the pages here is openly available on Wikipedia and it goes more in depth, especially with citations and resources. The information is still relevant up until the universes diverge (do we have a date for that?).
I do not think that simply being mentioned is enough for a country to have an entire page complete with copy pasted Wikipedia history and 3 sentences regarding it's mentions which would be better suited to other articles.
This is a forum, every one is allowed to contribute regardless of their user rights.
Shining-Armor (talk) 19:55, July 18, 2015 (UTC)
As a site, we strive to be the #1 source for everything Fallout in the world. This naturally entails being as inclusive of content as we can without wandering into irrelevancy. As long as a topic exists explicitly in the Fallout world, it is valid material. The Bleak House page, for example, was created simply because the name of the novel was written on a chalkboard in Vault 101! It doesn't get any more obscure than that. But at the end of the day, the very range of content that we cover, digging into every nook and cranny of the FO universe, is what will separate us from the Vault and other competing Fallout information sites. Space is not an issue, so what is?
--Skire (talk) 00:41, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
For starters the abridged histories of countries is not relevant to the Fallout universe.
Shining-Armor (talk) 00:57, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
For starters, that is merely your own opinion and has no precedent at this wiki. If countries are directly and explicitly mentioned in one of our covered sources, then by our guidelines it is absolutely notable. Secondary/tertiary mentions (as Chad listed below) are a different matter. Covering them is not usually our practice (and probably shouldn't be). Also, please do not edit my posts again. I prefer my signature to remain on the same line as the last sentence of my posts. --Skire (talk) 01:02, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
Well, for my Wolfenstein wiki, I use info on weapons i find on wiki but i stop around WW2. Simple as that here. Divergence.--Kingclyde (talk) 08:59, August 7, 2015 (UTC)

Misc

Is Shining Armor a mod or an admin or what?

188.141.67.213 20:00, July 18, 2015 (UTC)

I am a plain-as-day user of this wiki, nothing more.
Shining-Armor (talk) 20:11, July 18, 2015 (UTC)
What gives you the right to do this? Does your opinion automatically over-rule everyone else's? Yes, you set up a forum to discuss it in and I thank you for that, but in the end you still stuck a delete tag on those pages without consulting anyone. Moreso, your replies seem to be a little aggressive. Keep it civil, please.
"Space. The final frontier." ~The-Artist-64 (talk) 20:57, July 18, 2015 (UTC)The-Artist-64
I, as an editor, have the right to propose a discussion regarding the content of the wiki which is what I did. The deletion tag is simply a way of telling other readers/editors that the page is currently under review and that they are welcome to add their input.
Just because a tag is added does not automatically mean that the articles are going to be deleted. It instead is there to foster discussion ragarding the page in question.
As for overruling other's opinions would you be so kind as to point out when exactly I did such a thing? I merely tagged pages that I think, and with good reason, are irrelevant to the wiki. And as you can see there is an open discussion as to what to do with the pages I tagged.
I am sorry you feel that I am being aggressive and I can assure you that it is not the case at all. I am merely replying with my thoughts on the matter and have in no way acted aggressive in any of the replies, nor have I used aggressive language in the main post of this proposal.
Shining-Armor (talk) 21:45, July 18, 2015 (UTC)
I think it would seem a lot less belligerent to consult everyone on the talk page to see what they think before putting a delete tag on a page. That move was out of place. As to the section below, I completely understand what a delete tag is, and it was misused in this situation. Finally, you seem to be coming back to the supposedly welcome criticism with mean-spirited 'defense'. I appreciate your effort to clean up the wiki, but I think you're approaching it in the wrong way.
"Space. The final frontier." ~The-Artist-64 (talk) 22:07, July 18, 2015 (UTC)The-Artist-64
Because there were so many pages being tagged (and for the same reason) I felt that it would be beneficial to consolidate all of the discussions into a single forum regarding the matter.
You still seem to misunderstand the purpose of a delete tag. It is not to be put there after discussion, it is to be put there to start and to signify an ongoing discussion.
I am aware that you think that it has been misused and I think it is fair to say that I did not misuse it otherwise an administrator would not have stepped in to restore the tags after another user had removed them.
How am I adding mean spirited defenses? I am trying to be nothing but civil in this discussion yet you have accused me thrice of acting aggressive towards others.
I have done my part to respond to every message here and leave rebuttals, that's how a forum works. You offer an argument, I offer a counter, and so on and so forth until there is some sort of consensus reached as to what should be done.
I am approaching this the proper way. I have found content that I believe is unnecessary, I have tagged said content for discussion, and I have created a discussion and outlined why I feel that content is unnecessary.
Since you seem to think I am doing things wrong I must then ask how you think I should have gone about this?
Shining-Armor (talk) 22:25, July 18, 2015 (UTC)

Clarification on the meaning of a delete tag

There seems to be some confusion here, so let me try and explain things. A delete tag is not notifying users that the page will and must be deleted, but rather to let users know that there is room for a discussion on the deletion of that page. A delete tag does not overrule anyone and you do not need to consult anyone in order to add on. The addition of the deletion tag is part of the discussion, not superseding the discussion.

JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard.png 21:50, July 18, 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. The deletion tag also creates a specific ruleset that applies when the tag is there
If you are opposed to it being deleted, you should state your reasons.
Only if the tag is obviously in error should it be removed - you not knowing why its there is not it being obviously in error.
If Consensus after a reasonable time period says one outcome rules, then it rules
If there is no objection to the tag being removed after a reasonable time period, then the tag can be removed.
Agent c (talk) 22:11, July 18, 2015 (UTC)
I think it's been made clear that differing opinions are not welcome here. I've given my explanation and see no further reason to continue commenting. It's pretty clear how this is going to turn out, and I know when I've lost. With that, I bid everyone on the forum a fond farewell. Thanks for the conversation and happy editing!
"Space. The final frontier." ~The-Artist-64 (talk) 22:15, July 18, 2015 (UTC)The-Artist-64
I'm sorry you got that impression. Differing opinions are welcome, if they weren't we wouldn't be bothering with this forum.
A delete tag starts the conversation. It invites people to join the conversation - that's why its in big letters at the top of the article. If we didn't want to have a discussion then the page would be deleted already.
The first page I created was nominated for deletion - by a prominent admin no less. A discussion ended up with the result that the page should remain, and its been improved countless times since.
Agent c (talk) 22:19, July 18, 2015 (UTC)

Mentions by country

On just a few pages I see a list of ambiguous in-game mentions of places/cultures/languages. So instead of having one page per country for mentions why not bundle them all together into a single page of mentions of references by country by game?

I feel that this is a rather fitting compromise as it allows mentions to be sorted by country without a whole mess of pages that contain only a few mentions.

Shining-Armor (talk) 23:09, July 18, 2015 (UTC)

You could reformat the existing Pre-War countries page. I'm in favor of scrapping most of the individual country pages as they are, they're lazy and pointless. This is the Fallout Wiki, the Fallout information should be the most prominent thing on those pages, but instead the bulk of their content is copy/pasted from Wikipedia. In my opinion, the U.S., China, Canada, Mexico, and the Soviet Union are the only pre-War countries with enough Fallout lore about them at present to merit individual pages.
65.185.108.172 05:59, July 19, 2015 (UTC)
Just for the record, I'd appreciate if you all stop saying the content on the pages is copy-pasted from Wikipedia, cos that is kinda down-grading really, cos a lot of these articles I wrote a bit of that up and spent some time on them researching that info, and they weren't even copy-pasted at all, was all in my own words.
User ayyyy.jpg  OfficialLolGuy  Talk  Blog  12:49, July 19, 2015 (UTC)
First, I was annoyed to see deletion tags added to so many pages, countries. I mean really, Germany? You should sense beforehand that tackling such a wide-span subject will cause controversy, and not add deletion tags, but start a discussion on a forum first. I think we should keep the pages as they are. They may have not that much content and some of them not directly mentioned, but those are the kind of pages people would look for to find related information. They are improvements, in my opinion. Much more than other mentioned-only cat pages, like for example Vault 87 characters or all the seperate pages for Hoover Dam War casualties. We should we be grateful to have people like LolGuy creating content; he's the one creating the most at the moment. Adding deletion tags to all his work is a good way to sink his motivation. That's how I see it.
Jspoel Speech Jspoel.png 15:59, July 19, 2015 (UTC)
I said I wasn't coming back to this thread, but I have to thank you Jspoelstra. You've said just exactly what I, and likely others, were thinking.
"Space. The final frontier." ~The-Artist-64 (talk) 16:02, July 19, 2015 (UTC)The-Artist-64
I'm more or less agreeing with Jspoel on this one. Not only do I want our wiki to be as complete as possible (which means covering everything, not just the essential), I also believe that people that search countries here, don't expect it to be as complete as the Wikipedia page of that country. They just wanna see what was the involvement of that country in the Fallout series so far, and I think those pages do that job pretty good. The fact those pages are short doesn't mean that the pages are bad.
- Greets Peace'n Hugs (talk) (blog) 16:11, July 19, 2015 (UTC)
But what bearing does Ireland's 1937 constitution have on Fallout? Why do we need to know the abridged history of Romania when the only reference to it is mention of a single town? Why does Fallout 2 having a Belgian-made gun mean that every reader should be aware of how Belgium was occupied during WWII? We already know that the Fallout universe prior to Divergence was more or less a mirror of our own, should we therefore make individual pages for every country that existed up until then? None of this stuff is even tangentially relevant to Fallout. If you think readers might like to know more about name-dropped real-world countries, it would be much more expedient to link to the Wikipedia pages instead of wasting their time on bits and pieces here.
65.185.108.172 17:39, July 19, 2015 (UTC)
Well more or less it, shall we say, "inspired" to make content. Like this Belgian gun you mentioned, it can be assumed that it was manufactured in World War II and therefore we have the piece of content of Belgium fighting in WWII.
☢ Energy X ☣ 18:36, July 19, 2015 (UTC)

(reset indent) I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit here, try to further the conversation around why these pages should or should not be on the wiki. I would like an example of content from one of these pages that constitutes info or lore that is germane or distinct to the Fallout world that is best served by being on a country page, rather than a related page. Remember: content is supposed to be placed in the most appropriate place, e.g. notes about quest related content should be on the quest page, etc. Is there content on these pages, explicitly germane or distinct to the Fallout world, that is constructively different than what Wikipedia has up on their page? Wikia specifically states they are not Wikipedia. Is the content on these pages distinct enough from the Wikipedia article, with information distinct to the changes in that country in the Fallout world, or is it just a blub stating what the Wikipedia article already states? Do we believe a reader who is looking for information on a country on this wiki is interested in reading stock info with nothing new that really pertains differences in that country in the game world? Are we really best served by having stub articles with no real Fallout world information? What becomes of the reader that is looking for info on that country in the Fallout world who goes to that page and finds no significant differences to the Wikipedia article? Have we given them the information they are seeking?

 The Gunny  UserGunny chevrons.png 17:50, July 19, 2015 (UTC)

Good lord you people are melodramatic. I thought all of this was settled a week ago on the UK talk page. Then someone went and made an Ireland page and started editing all the country pages and now we can't have anything nice.
--188.141.67.213 00:18, July 20, 2015 (UTC)
I have no problem at all with a page for a country in the Fallout world that has enough content that is different than the real world country. These are the things we do need to inform on. When it's different than the real world. What I'm not certain on is why we need to inform on things that are not different than the real world, when it comes to a country's history.
 The Gunny  UserGunny chevrons.png 01:44, July 20, 2015 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for someone to give me an example of content on any of these pages that is unique to the Fallout world, meriting mention here as different than the wikipedia page, that does not properly belong on a more appropriate page.
 The Gunny  UserGunny chevrons.png 00:46, July 21, 2015 (UTC)
There's quite a bit, I'm list some if you want. Not to be pessimistic or anything, but tbh, I don't expect anything to come of it, it's still most likely gonna be blown off and that, because most of the time that's what happens on here. But whatever, just go with it anyway innit
Austria - Glock, a firearms company, is based here, and creates the plasma pistols most commonly seen on the west coast USA, a major weapon in the times leading up to the bombs. In addition, Gaston Glock put himself on an artificial intelligence. Furthermore, the Vault 92 musicians played music from Dvorak during their residency.
France - Characters from or originating from France and references to France appear in five different iterations of Fallout. A Golden Globes movie features a French exchange student, three members of Sudden-Death Overtime have surnames of French (Quebec?) origin. Daniel Littlehorn also has a penchant for French traditionalist painting shit, Dubois is explicitly stated as being from there, several more references, etc.
Germany - Many symbolic weapons, such as Gauss weaponry, the MP9, and the Vindicator are of German make or origin. There's a lot more as well, made by the German companies Rhienmetall, Donaustahl, and Heckler & Koch. Stanislaus Braun was born there, so that's a living person from the country, not to mention he was one of the greatest scientists Vault-Tec had, and was greatly involved in Project: Safehouse and the GECK development. Again, more references and shit as well.
That's just to detail a few. I'm also gonna mention Israel, since that's surprisingly up for deletion as well. I'm not sure whether to be more surprised at Israel getting nominated or Germany getting nominated, fuck knows. But Israel suffered a nuclear attack on Tel Aviv during the Resource Wars, which is something major, really. It also gives some rare insight into the conditions of the Middle East before the war, as well as a bit of allusion to the divergence, as well. That's all I've gotta say for now, and hopefully none of this goes ahead, because it's just a complete disaster. yo, i know people like to describe this place as being a "democracy", but really, it's a website, come on, there's nothing valiant about that or anything, in an environment such as this, it's best to judge things by the correct answer, rather than bureaucratic bullshit, no offense to anyone intended with that if any was taken, not aimed at anyone, it's just the atmosphere here at the moment, it's like tryna piss against the wind getting anywhere with anything
User ayyyy.jpg  OfficialLolGuy  Talk  Blog  02:30, July 21, 2015 (UTC)
Great arguments, thanks OfficialLolGuy! I knew that opposition, or more accurately common sense, would come eventually. Most of us are against it, I hope that's clear now. I think it's time to remove the delete tags and put this all behind us.
"Space. The final frontier." ~The-Artist-64 (talk) 03:06, July 21, 2015 (UTC)The-Artist-64
I doesn't actually work like that. This discussion is only a few days old and only has a handful of people weighing in. Before anything is closed (and taken to a vote) either more time needs to elapse or more people need to weigh in.
Either way, it's far from being over.
Shining-Armor (talk) 03:28, July 21, 2015 (UTC)

(reset indent) Almost none of the references OfficialLolGuy listed tell us anything substantive about the countries themselves, they do not justify the pages. Vault 92 residents playing Dvorak does not make Dvorak relevant to readers here, and if Dvorak himself is not relevant, why would his home country be? And is "A Golden Globes movie features a French exchange student" really supposed to be so notable a detail as to justify an article for France? Neither of those references (or the ones about characters/weapons being born/from those countries) tell us anything new about the state of Austria and France post-Divergence. That these snippets represent the best available evidence to argue for keeping these country pages goes to show how weak that argument is.

I will add Israel back into the "keep" column however, I didn't realize Tel Aviv was nuked pre-War. That's a significant event that happens only in the Fallout timeline and provides a picture, albeit a small one, of the state of a pre-War country in the Fallout universe. If all of these countries had similarly meaningful references (if, for example, we knew that the ruins of Paris had been overrun by giant mutant snails in 2130, or Austria had been invaded by forces from the Middle East during the Resource Wars), then I'd be willing to leave the pages alone.

65.185.108.172 09:22, July 21, 2015 (UTC)

Also, I want to note here that the Moon is not a country and has ample lore justification for a page. The final decision on whether to delete it or not should be a separate discussion from this one.
65.185.108.172 09:32, July 21, 2015 (UTC)
The examples given by Lol to me, rather than confirm the need for the articles actually argue against the inclusion of most of them.
That Dvorak, in the Prime Universe, is Austrian is not guaranteed in the Fallout timeline - likely perhaps, but it's an extrapolation not based on evidence. Citing French looking names as a need for an article on France is the definition of speculation - made all the more worse by Lol conceding a likely alternative option (Québécois) which given the context (Hockey) is more likely than the stated reason.
For me I think we need to redraw the line. Direct and clear references In game or by a developer warrant inclusion - Canada, USA, Mexico, China, Russia, UK, Israel (the latter two by developer comment) are clearly and unambiguously in. France is on the line, but given the only reference to actual France is to a character playing a French exchange student (and thus not at all discussingis out - a pre war artist came from there is too much of a tangent.. Germany, that companies who made firearms are based there isn't enough, but if there is evidence that Braun wan born there, it might just limp over the line.
Agent c (talk) 09:43, July 21, 2015 (UTC)

Survey

Here's my proposal in detail

  • Primary - Specifically mentioned by a Developer or background text or the game is set there. This page should have significant in game content.
  • Secondary - A character claims to be from there, or a living character references events that happened there. This page should contain in game content referencing that character.
  • Tertiary - Tenious links, like an object or piece of art coming from there, or a pre war company being based there. These articles are mostly selected summaries of pre war events that are not directly relevant to the fallout setting - no fallout information is available on them.


Country Best Mention Keep/Delete
Austria Tertiary (Weapon companies, Gaston Glock being made into an AI, song played by an austrain composer) Delete
Belgium Tertiary (Weapons companies HQ'd there in Real world) Delete
Canada Primary (our boys in Canada) Keep
China Primary (Great War opponent) Keep
CSA Arguably Primary (Source of Biogas in PL) or Tertiary Debatable
Europe Not an entity - why is it in pre war countries delete
European Commonwealth Not a country, but Primary class entity (F1 Intro) Keep and Recatagorise
Finland Tertiary (Long ancestral links) Delete
France Mostly tertiary links, but Resource wars might merit primary Keep, but cull all that french language/name nonsense.
Greece Tertairy (and that's generous - References to Greek Mythology) Delete
India Tertiary - objects and names with an indian origin, mention in the cancelled film Delete
Ireland Secondary/Tertairy - someone sounds like they might be from the ROI, but could be NI, no info learned Debatable
Italy Mostly tertiary links, but Resource wars might merit primary Keep, but cull all that Roman/Italian-American nonsense
Mexico Primary (developer reference) keep
Mongolia Primary - Fallout Extreme Keep
Romania Tertiary (and thats generous) - vague reference to Dracula Delete
Soviet Union Primary - Fallout Extreme Keep, but needs a cull
Switzerland Tertiary - Weapon/ammo companies, "Swiss Cheese", a mention by Three Dog, and a challet simulation Delete.
Taiwan Primary, barely (Referenced in Extreme, no data) Keep
UK Primary - Resource wars Keep, but needs a serious cull. An English accent is not a reference.
USA Primary - All known games based there Keep


Any objections?

Agent c (talk) 20:50, July 21, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the choices of pages to keep and delete (though CSA should probably just be deleted because it was dissolved long before the split?). One thing I would want to see in kept pages is that all of the background history nonsense be culled as well. There is nothing in the history sections that are relative to the Fallout Universe.
Edit: I still object to having individual pages for countries that have no real significance (countries other than the US, China, CCCP, etc.). I feel that all of these references can be consolidated into a single page and we would be much better off doing so.
Shining-Armor (talk) 20:54, July 21, 2015 (UTC)
With the exception of Canada, I can agree to the better part of this. To me the question is: Do we have verified information regarding things that happened in this country that are demonstrably different than the real world country? If that answer is no, then I don't believe we should have the page.
I also prefer my sig on the same line as my comments.
 The Gunny  UserGunny chevrons.png 20:55, July 21, 2015 (UTC)
Canada is fixed, I can't believe I forgot the F1 intro.
Agent c (talk) 20:56, July 21, 2015 (UTC)
Not just Fallout 1 intro, but the loading screens of Fallout 3: Canada's annexation.
☢ Energy X ☣ 22:37, July 21, 2015 (UTC)
In any case, Canada's continuing on the site was never in question, its clearly not a tertiary case
Agent c (talk) 23:00, July 21, 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Agent c for compiling the information in this table. Categorising the source of references as primary/secondary/tertiary really helps us see where the line is to be drawn. Generally, I agree that countries with only obscure, non-concrete, and indirect references should be removed. This will also help set a precedent for our notability criteria. Having said that, I concur with the suggested actions in the chart with the exception of the CSA. Deleting that is simply nonsensical considering its prominent role in Point Lookout.
--Skire (talk) 03:12, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Shining that there should be a consolidation, but only of the secondary. All primary should have their own page, all secondary consolidated, and all tertiary deleted.
Lord Onions: Dat Onion Ring Luvin Fox! (Talk) 22:17, July 24, 2015 (UTC)


(reset indent) As I've said a few times before, this site to be honest is going to absolute shit; you're changing the way its been since its creation when it was fine, and actually correct the way it was. If any of this goes ahead, you're gonna have to delete half the rest of the content on the rest of the wiki, cos it'd fall under all this what you describe as redundant. The fact you call all the content in the pages "nonsense" or "that's being generous" is kinda insulting. Dickish to be quite honest actually. The Europe article exists to differentiate non European Commonwealth countries from countries inside the Commonwealth, since before it was made, European countries with no proof of being in the Commonwealth were all hastily dumped on the Commonwealth page. Use some initiative, think outside the box, and you could have figured that out for yourself without me needing to explain it to you. And "an English accent is not a reference", that doesn't even make sense. So what you're saying is, Moriarty's clear Irish accent isn't a reference to anywhere in Ireland? Don't chat shit. It's just small-mindedness, the entire logic behind all of this, and as if certain references to countries are going to be removed from the new iterations for apparently being unnotable? How? It's a clear reference to the country, no reason to keep it out. Like I said, it's like tryna piss against the wind getting anywhere here, and in severe cases people like Leon get b&, because him standing up to things, or fighting for change or keeping the site the way it always has and should be, in Chad's words, is apparently something that causes shit on the wiki, which is apparently bannable. That's some shady shit right there, haha.

The community has no input or power or anything, just a set group of a few sysops who are lucky enough to be proper tight with each other, and that's where all the control rests. After four years, I've come to expect nothing less. I've done all I can, if my time here's taught me anything about here, it's best just to stop trying not that long after you start trying, because no one listens, because they don't have to. Except for a few rare incidents, nobody in power ever really pulls over people who need to be, to say "what's this about?", "why is this like this?", or "what are you doing, why the fuck are you even in a position of power here?" As I've said before in chat, but never on the wiki, there's no system in place here. Everything's decided on the random by a specific group of individuals, the same every time. For things like this, you need to have policies and rulesets in place, notability of articles such as this especially. You can't decide it off-wiki where nobody on the wiki even gets a tiny bit of information about what's happening. It's a fucking shambles mate. The current way we've made articles and our idea of notable has been like it is now ever since the wiki's creation, and it's gonna be an absolute shame and a disaster if it's altered. Information is information, and any kind, no matter how big or small, its useful to someone, even if it isn't for you. Whatever happens, happens, I'll go with it, but either way, this site's going to shit.

User ayyyy.jpg  OfficialLolGuy  Talk  Blog  23:30, July 21, 2015 (UTC)

I find the proposal agreeable. Honestly, I'd cull a few more of those countries you want to keep, but I'm willing to compromise since this will still be a definite improvement over the current status quo (and I'm leaning towards "delete" for those countries listed as "debatable"). This will be codified in wiki policy if approved, correct?
65.185.108.172 02:03, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
Note: My comment directly above was directed at Agent c, not OfficialLolGuy.
To OfficialLolGuy: This may be from Wikipedia, but you may benefit from a read: WP:TINC. The entire purpose of this discussion is to allow community input. Just because you aren't personally happy with the direction the discussion is going doesn't mean that the wiki is taking a turn for the worse at the hands of an elite group of all-powerful people. Look at me, I don't even have an account and yet I'm generously being allowed to say my piece. If there was a cabal, this discussion would not be taking place.
65.185.108.172 02:25, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
Then your comment should be where it is now, Lolguy's reply is in response to Agent c. If it is not in reply to Agent c then it needs to be in it's own section. Comments flow in order with one extra indent per reply. If a reply reaches a certain point then it is set back to position 0 and it comments continue the indent order starting from 0. If you want to reply to a specific comment then you need to break out of the discussion and add an extra indent level as I have done here (your comment is at indent 2 and my reply to you is at indent 4).
Shining-Armor (talk) 02:47, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
To anon above: I don't know how long you've been around for, or if you're in the know of any of the community stuff, or within the chat or anything, but I'm not saying this for unfounded reasons. However, since I don't know how long you've been here or anything, I'm not sure how exactly to explain what I mean to you. But basically, I'm talking about the "politics" of the site (sysops, etc.), and about recent happenings here, such as the hypocritical banning of a user disagreeing with several admins, which funnily enough, was about this very subject. But I've received advice from an admin about all this, so I'm gonna refrain from going further into this and just leave it for a while, not only that, it's also going sort of off-topic now, but from what it seems, I think there might be more to this than you realise, I can't say for sure.
User ayyyy.jpg  OfficialLolGuy  Talk  Blog  02:31, July 22, 2015 (UTC)

(reset indent) Lol, please check your attitude at the door. You've been here long enough to know how our process works - we discuss and then unless there is clear and obvious consensus we vote on it. At the moment I think we're looking at a tripolar vote - keep all, delete all, keep some and delete some. However, and I must stress this, no decision has been made.

I appreciate that this is an emotional situation. For you as you have put a lot of work into these, but I think you'll have to conceded a number of these pages are 90%+ non fallout related content.

For the Euope page, of all the pages here it is the one with the least right to exist. We don't need a group page for countries just because they happen to share a continent. The content is already on the country page.

Moriarty's clear Irish accent isn't a reference to anywhere in Ireland?

Given that this accent appears on both the UK and ROI page, of all the accent citations this is the worst. You don't even know what state the accent is from. If it appearing as an item on two different country pages doesn't prove that it's not a clear reference, I don't know what is.

It tells you nothing about the place he's from, what its like, what conditions existed. It just says he has an accent, that's all. It gives 0 content.

Finally, neither I, nor the imaginary "chat consensus" will be deciding this. It will go to a public vote, just like every other change proposal. The admins have exactly the same day as any other person, and we don't vote as a block. Me going through all the country pages was an independent move of my own without any consultation and is an attempt to find a compromise. If you're unwilling to work with others and compromise, then perhaps a collaborative project like a wiki is not for you.

Agent c (talk) 09:51, July 22, 2015 (UTC)

How many times do we have to say this? The only thing even close to a consensus on this topic in chat was Gunny telling Shining to make a forum instead of discussing it in chat. Literally the discussion went straight from Shining saying she doesn't like these pages, to her being told to express that though the correct means (i.e. add a deletion tag), to her doing so. I know that it's easy to believe that the man is evil and out to get you, but I'm afraid that is not the case.
As for the alleged "hypocritical banning" that is not what happened. Nobody was banned for disagreeing, they we banned for breaking the rules (removing a deletion tag before discussion) and for reacting with hostility when told to follow our policies. If you wish to contest this ban, please take it to another forum, but it is not relevant here (and we have already had two independent rights users, one who's an admin and one who's a bcrat, review the situation and feel there was no need for a change).
As for the topic at hand, an accent that sounds like it comes from somewhere is not confirmation the person is from that place. Personally I would say that Moritary likely is from Ireland and looking at some of the other pages we have (Japan) for real worl countries I felt that Ireland is far less of a stretch. Personally I don't mind which route we chose, so long as we chose one, which is the whole point of this forum, so if people could stop screaming about how corrupt the wiki is and focus on the discussion then maybe you'll actually get what you want at the end of this.
JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard.png 10:48, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
Japan isn't in the pre war countries cat for some reason. It would be secondary
Agent c (talk) 12:29, July 22, 2015 (UTC)

(reset indent) Firstly, to Chad, don't speak to me like I'm some sort of dickhead. "Check your attitude at the door...", "I think you'll have to concede...", "if you're unwilling to work and compromise this isn't for you...", don't speak to me as if I'm your son, just letting it be known, that's something that I will take personally and I won't stand for, because where I'm from, that's something you just don't do, and being from and raised there, it's rubbed off onto me as well, not liking someone speaking to me like that. I wouldn't even let my own family speak to me like that. While I want to be perfectly civil and I don't want this to be taken in the wrong way/tone, I don't think you especially would come round here and speak to someone like that, because I'm not even gonna discuss what I've known or seen happen to people who've acted like that with someone. Just think about the way you speak to people, that's all I'm saying. Now that I've made all that clear, as to the subject at hand, you said: "a number of these pages are 90% non fallout related content" - that's just baseless, and you're just exaggerating everything, and you obviously haven't even researched these pages enough (an explanation for that, I'll get onto in a minute) therefore, that statement isn't really valid, so I'm gonna ignore it. Fair enough for the Europe page, but everyone was alright with it when it was made a year and half ago, and it was the only known solution back then to separating non-Commonwealth countries from the European Commonwealth article.

As for the Irish accent, you've just misinterpreted everything. I wasn't even speaking about the Northern-Republic debate shit, I was just using it as a quick example of how an English accent can't not be a reference to the UK. Stop using that old debate as a red herring and actually focus on my main point and initial question.

As for Leon's ban, you blocked him just for him saying that the way you're handling the management of the situation is pathetic. Secondly, he wasn't being hostile, he was having a challenging attitude, yeah, but that's only having passion for that he's speaking about, if you really thought that was hostile, and even if it was hostile, which it wasn't, and thought it was bad enough for a ban, then I'd personally suggest you grow thicker skin and learn to handle yourself and back yourself up better. As for the accents, of course it is, but the thing is, Moriarty's accent for example, is completely obviously Irish. It can't be denied, it can't be worked around, it can't be extrapolated; you may as well just look at the facts, and take them as they are.

One last thing, why are we now hurrying and rushing the process of the forum? There's no valid reason. Best thing for this situation is to be have as much time as we possibly can, there's not many people taking part in this discussion, and this does matter for and affect everybody, and if I'm gonna be honest a lot of people have already or could end up being ill-informed about the facts of the matter. One such catalyst for this is the fact that the table made by Chad, was or maybe even still is full of incompletion and false or misleading statements. I had to take it into my own hands and risk getting my edit reverted, my head bitten off, or even warned or blocked, because I added in extra information and corrections to it to prevent people being ill-informed and misled by the table, a key feature of the discussion and the face of how the community will make their decisions. Such as the Austria tab, he just stated that the only reference to Austria is a song by Antonín Dvořák being played in Vault 92 during its residency. In fact, it goes further than that, with Glock manufacturing plasma pistols, and Gaston Glock turning himself into an AI. There was more missing information for Switzerland. Same for India. There's possibly even others. Funny how you can find all the less-important information to support its deletion, but you coincidentally or accidentally miss out the more important information that could save the pages. Maybe I'm onto something, maybe I'm not, you be the judges, I'm just pointing out my uncertainty around it. My point is, that this shows just what the some admins can get away with, what they can hide, or what they can be given leighway on, and that Chad, a key person in the anti-country page argument, obviously doesn't completely know what he's talking about, and can't fully handle this situation with care and make a table representing the facts and being what decisions will be judged on be 100% accurate and unbiased, nor is he really willing put the proper amount of effort into researching the topic and the constructs of it, which are some of the main things necessary to manage these large propositions for changes.

User ayyyy.jpg  OfficialLolGuy  Talk  Blog  00:14, July 23, 2015 (UTC)


(reset indent)

While I want to be perfectly civil and I don't want this to be taken in the wrong way/tone, I don't think you especially would come round here and speak to someone like that, because I'm not even got discuss what I've known or seen happen to people who've acted like that with someone.

Given some of your responses, you bet I would. I find it rather amazing that you're telling me to watch how I speak, when you really need to be watching your own.

a number of these pages are 90% non fallout related content" - that's just baseless, and you're just exaggerating everything, and you obviously haven't even researched these pages enough

Firstly, it was supposed to be a glib comment, but actually looking into it, its neither baseless, nor an exageration

Finland.

1258 Characters (with spaces)
Fallout content - 110 characters (with spaces)
8.7% Fallout Content.

Romania

2098 Characters (with spaces)
Fallout Content - 244 Characters (with spaces)
11.6% Fallout content

Belgium

1116 Characters (with spaces)
Fallout content: 45 characters (with spaces) - 61 if I include the secnond link for the company
Fallout Content - 4% or 5%, depending on how you measure.

Greece

1195 characters (with spaces)
Fallout Content - 158 characters (with spaces)
13.2% Fallout Content

Since some is "greater than 1", and I've shown 4 around 90% +/- 5%, I have proven my case.

Fair enough for the Europe page, but everyone was alright with it when it was made a year and half ago, and it was the only known solution back then to separating non-Commonwealth countries from the European Commonwealth article

Precedent is not an excuse for ongoing problems.

As for the Irish accent, you've just misinterpreted everything. I wasn't even speaking about the Northern-Republic debate shit, I was just using it as a quick example of how an English accent can't not be a reference to the UK Stop using that old debate as a red herring and actually focus on my main point and initial question.

Given that this wiki can't agree on its pages whether or not its a reference to the ROI or the UK, I stand by what I said. Its not a misinterpretation.

As for Leon's ban, you blocked him just for him saying that the way you're handling the management of the situation is pathetic.

I did no such thing. He was blocked (by someone else) for insults and attempting to start user conflicts. Something that he continued when I tried to engage him after his block. He has been specifically warned against such a thing, as have I.

One such catalyst for this is the fact that the table made by Chad, was or maybe even still is full of incompletion and false or misleading statements. I had to take it into my own hands and risk getting my edit reverted, my head bitten off, or even warned or blocked, because I added in extra information and corrections to it to prevent people being ill-informed and misled by the table, a key feature of the discussion and the face of how the community will make their decisions

You are free to create your own table. We do not ban for good faith edits.

Such as the Austria tab, he just stated that the only reference to Austria is a song by Antonín Dvořák being played in Vault 92 during its residency

I did not state such a thing. I believe you'll find the header says "best". It never claims to be the only reference.

with Glock manufacturing plasma pistols, and Gaston Glock turning himself into an AI

Lets review again the classfication table:

  • Primary - Specifically mentioned by a Developer or background text or the game is set there. This page should have significant in game content.
  • Secondary - A character claims to be from there, or a living character references events that happened there. This page should contain in game content referencing that character.
  • Tertiary - Tenious links, like an object or piece of art coming from there, or a pre war company being based there. These articles are mostly selected summaries of pre war events that are not directly relevant to the fallout setting - no fallout information is available on them.

Glock manufacturing plasma pistols is an object claiming to be from there, so a tertiary classification. It is no greater than the one I already mentioned.

Specifically on Glock, and this applies to most of the countless other country pages that list weapon manufacturers We don't know if Glock was operational in Austria in the Fallout timeline, if it was operational in Austria you don't know if was producing the Glock in Austria. You also don't know if this Gaston Glock was Austrian before it became an AI. You've speculated - reasonable extrapolations, but speculations none the less.

In any case, none of that tells you anything about Austria. With 1968 characters with spaces and 613 of them used for fallout content, the Austrian article is running at 31% fallout content.

Funny how you can find all the less-important information to support its deletion, but you coincidentally or accidentally miss out the more important information that could save the pages

Actually Lol, that was the stuff that argued in favour of the page remaining that I found. Thats why a good number of them say "keep", not "delete". I was looking for a reason to keep it not to delete it.

Stop treating me as your enemy as I'm arguing to actually keep some of these pages, rather than the wall of No

Maybe I'm onto something, maybe I'm not, you be the judges, I'm just pointing out my uncertainty around it. My point is, that this shows just what the some admins can get away with, what they can hide, or what they can be given leighway on, and that Chad, a key person in the anti-country page argument, obviously doesn't completely know what he's talking about, and can't fully handle this situation with care and make a table representing the facts and being what decisions will be judged on be 100% accurate and unbiased, nor is he really willing put the proper amount of effort into researching the topic and the constructs of it, which are some of the main things necessary to manage these large propositions for changes.

I believe I have proven my case, and all you have been able to do is sling mud. The fact is Lol, I was arguing for a compromise, a consensus position. You have been unable to get off your soapbox and negotiate or move at all, as seemingly everyone else in this discussion has.

As for my "decision" being unbiased... I don't know what you're on about. There is no decision, and I've presented a reasonable middle ground position based on what is on those articles. I appreciate that you're possessive about them, but this isn't the lol show. It not the C show either. Its a wiki, that means we discuss, negotiate, and compromise. You seem to be finding this difficult. Exactly what do you think I'm biased against?

Your emotional about it because you worked on it, thats understandable, but maybe if stopped for a moment you'd see I was arguing to keep a lot of what you did, against those who wanted to delete it all wholesale.

You're a patroller here Lol. That means you should know how it works here. I remind you again. We discuss, we try to find consensus and then we vote on it. "The evil admins" are not making a decision.

Agent c (talk) 01:12, July 23, 2015 (UTC)

Bringing to a conclusion

Due to the emotions and tempers flying around, I want to bring this to an end sooner rather than later - before someone says something they regret.

At the moment, I see a vote happening on a tripolar vote. If we remain at three options then it will be a simple "select one" with a 33%+1 outcome required to succeed.

If we have a fourth option proposed, we'll move to a preferential system.

The options I am proposing are as follows:

  • No change
No pages are removed, no standard is set for a country inclusion. No requirements are set for the creation of these pages aside from our normal requirements
  • Primary Countries only
Countries that play a significant role in Fallout mythology and/or are included as territory in any fallout game/bible/developer comments (Canon, Non Canon, completed or not) may be included only where there is content available about the country in the FO Universe. Relevant guidelines are updated to reflect this standard
USA, Mexico, China, Soviet Union, Canada, UK et al may be retained subject to a reasonable amount of information being available
  • Secondary References permitted
This would follow primary, but allow inclusion where characters are known to be from or discuss these places. Tenuous links are not allowed. Policy is updated to reflect this
Any page listed "tertiary" above gets deleted.

Are there any other proposals? Agent c (talk) 16:04, July 22, 2015 (UTC)

I'm game. Sounds good to me.
JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard.png 19:52, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
Works for me
 The Gunny  UserGunny chevrons.png 19:57, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
I'm all for it. Side question: As a user with no account, am I permitted to vote or not?
65.185.108.172 20:09, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
Just so we can be sure its a clean vote, you will need to register an account before the vote (and make an edit) before the vote is called.
Agent c (talk) 20:59, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
I was hoping to avoid that since I'm not sure how much I will be around, but it's done. I (65.185.108.172) am now Clockpuncher.
Clockpuncher (talk) 23:26, July 22, 2015 (UTC)




Policy vote forum overview
PolicyContent policy
Amendment 1General/specific rule & BTS speculation · Vote · 30 December 2014 · 11-1-0; 9-3-1
Amendment 2Countries articles standard · Discussion · Vote · 2 August 2015 · 16-3-2
Amendment 3Attribution · Vote · 27 August 2015 · 13-0-0
Amendment 4Creation Club content · Vote · 25 September 2017 · 23-3-0
Amendment 5Creation Club article placement · Vote · 25 October 2017 · 15-5
Amendment 6Creation Club on mainspace · Discussion · Vote · 20 March 2018 · 15-5-2
Amendment 7Deleting Torn and Lionheart · Vote · 7 June 2020 · 12-0-0
Related topicsContent organization guideline · Article layout guideline
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