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As seen in this week's Bureaucratic hearing regarding Saint Pain's permanent chat ban enacted a little over a year ago, opposition has been presented and we will begin converting this process over to a community vote. Please review the prior discussion leading up to this vote before making a decision here.

With two discussions taking place and this incident already scrutinized thoroughly, I will cut to the chase and begin the voting process now:

The Vote

Poll finished on 10:11 pm November 13, 2013 (UTC).
Poll
  • A consensus must be reached by voting before any action is taken.
  • You can vote by placing one of the following lines in the appropriate section:
    • Use # {{yes}} ~~~ if you support the proposal.
    • Use # {{no}} ~~~ if you are against the proposal.
    • Use # {{neutral}} ~~~ if you wish to abstain.
  • Please do not edit other people's votes.

Yes

Vote yes if you wish to see Saint Pain's chat ban removed

  1. Icon check Peace'n Hugs Greets
  2. Icon check Please see my thoughts on the Bureaucratic hearing for my vote rationale. ForGaroux Some Assembly Required! 22:15, November 6, 2013 (UTC)
  3. Icon check Agent c (talk) 22:23, November 6, 2013 (UTC)
  4. Icon check MountHail (talk) 22:24, November 6, 2013 (UTC)
  5. Icon check --The Ever Ruler (talk) 22:27, November 6, 2013 (UTC)
  6. Icon check Please see my thoughts on the Bureaucratic hearing for why I'm voting like this. ---bleep196- (talk) 22:31, November 6, 2013 (UTC)
  7. Icon check Dead Gunner's SMG JPG1 "Semper Invictus" 22:45, November 6, 2013 (UTC)
  8. Icon check I agree with the rationale provided by Leon and other supporters in the forum. Saint's continued community presence and numerous high-quality images and edits are more than enough to prove that he deserves another chance in chat. FollowersApocalypseLogosectatorapocalypsi 23:09, November 6, 2013 (UTC)
  9. Icon check Leea (talk)
  10. Icon check My reasons remain the same as in the previous vote last year.
    Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪
  11. Icon check Saint has done great work in the past few months and acknowledges that his behaviour in chat, should his ban be lifted, must be stellar. --Skire (talk) 01:50, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
  12. Icon check Enclavesymbol 02:09, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
  13. Icon check Richie9999 (talk) 02:20, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
  14. Icon check MadeMan2 "Say 'ello to my little friend!" 20:56, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
  15. Icon check Pain means no harm, this has been a long time coming. --TwoBearsHigh-Fiving Intercom01 02:42, November 8, 2013 (UTC)
  16. Icon check I explained my reason before... THE NUCLEAR KING Talk 02:50, November 8, 2013 (UTC)
  17. Icon check I think Saint Pain is a pretty cool guy. Eh kills muties and doesnt afraid of anything. Aleksandr the Great (talk) 03:08, November 8, 2013 (UTC)
  18. Icon check He seemed quite nice to me before his ban. --NukaTurtle (talk) 11:38, November 8, 2013 (UTC)
  19. Icon check SaintPain seems very nice to me, by helping me out, and when I reviewed the previous discussions, it looks like I'd have to support on this.This is now officially Psyduck Approved. HelpAOMRocks20
  20. Icon check Okay, let's get out of here. What are you waiting for – do you think I want to get shot? Let's go. (talk) 02:02, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
  21. Icon check --THE-HECK-OF-A-GUY (talk) 11:58, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
  22. Icon check I support the removal of Saint's chatban. --The Old World Relics (talk/blog/contributions) 19:39, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

No

Vote no if you wish to see Saint Pain's chat ban remain

  1. Icon cross As I have said in the forum, I don't think that Pain being a nice guy who means no harm won't stop him this time if it didn't stop him last time. JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 01:31, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
  2. Icon cross --Zerginfestor (talk) 02:28, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
  3. Icon cross As per my reasoning of my last vote on the matter. His community presence/contributions doesn't warrant another chance at being able to use the chat ever again. His previous track records shows he isn't capable of being able of using the chat within the rules of it. I do believe people can change, but I see no evidence that he has. Detroit lions Hawk da Barber 2012 - BSHU Graduate 04:40, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
  4. Icon cross RamboRob196 (talk) 18:15, November 10, 2013 (UTC) "I do not go out of my way to be cryptic.. I have a poetic nature. I never said I was a great poet, but it is part of who I am and how I speak." He has a serious inability to communicate, both in a way that others can understand but also lacks the ability to understand others, which are basically the key components for a chat room
  5. Icon cross I believe I made myself rather clear. --Sign243Talk 19:11, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Neutral

  1. Icon neutral I really feel that it is best i stay out of this vote for the moment until i have been a bit more active. Unknown-7 "Broadcasting: Retro Radiation King" 05:03, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
  2. Icon neutral I've said this before, but I don't know enough about the circumstances surrounding SaintPain's ban to say that I support it 100%. I agree too much with what's been said in the "no" votes, though; this isn't the first time he's asked for a second chance, and I don't think "being nice" stands as a valid enough reason to lift a ban nor does it indicate that he will be more behaved in chat. 69.l25 (talk) 19:14, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
  3. Icon neutral As this is a community hearing, it seemed only fair to include my vote. Albeit neutral, for while I have examined the discussions, I find myself falling in agreement with the above. I do not know the minute details and feel therefore it would be unfair to judge in favor of either direction. It would be antagonizing to see Saint Pain fall into his previous habits as some users seem to believe he would after voting in favor of unbanning him. --Wishywitchy (talk) 20:57, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Comments

For those who have voted no thus far, I remind you that Saint has been a continuously active member or our community. He participates in community events, is active on the wiki every day, and has contributed numerous high quality images and edits. He has done everything outside of chat that he can. How can we say he hasn't changed if we won't let him prove he can? FollowersApocalypseLogosectatorapocalypsi 04:45, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

And to those who have voted yes thus far, I remind you that Saint already got one extra chance, regularly responded to his previous bans by yelling power abuse, has serious trouble using the English language when he talks so would break rules without even intending to, and has admitted the he has little intention of using chat and instead just wants the badge that proves he's done wrong to go away. JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 05:02, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
If he really has no intention of using the chat, doesn't that actually makes him even less likely to stir up trouble there?
Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 10:55, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
Doesn't matter. If he has no intention of using chat why would we need to unban him from chat? JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 20:11, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

My reasons for wishing to have the option to rejoin chat is mostly so I can be more available to help our members with their issues and to more readily interact with community concerns or best of all "celebrate" the achievements of my friends.

I really am just here to help. If you can't trust me. Trust the ones who recanted their words against me. If a mod's word can ban on an impulse, should it not also carry the weight after more careful consideration to absolve ?

SaintPain TinySaintPainHere to help." 02:04, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

Mods do not "ban on impulse". And you seem to think I have not had "careful consideration" too, just because I voted "no" doesn't mean I didn't think about it first.JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 02:08, November 8, 2013 (UTC)
Even if he has stated his plans on not coming into chat on a regular basis, he has still made it pretty clear that he does wish to come into chat every now and again. So this is a bit of a null point. ForGaroux Some Assembly Required! 20:14, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

To those who have voted no, I do have to ask what sort of behaviour would you expect to see before removing a perma ban? Agent c (talk) 11:35, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

To me this isn't about the short of behaviour we would or wouldn't expect. It;s the fact that Pain, even though he never intended to break the rules, regularly did because it's in his nature and I don't think his nature is going to have changed significantly in this time. He isn't a child coming of age, he's a fully grown man who should have already known better. His inability to communicate in clear English is a issue no matter how nice of a guy he is. JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 20:14, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
Regarding his English, Saint Pain has indeed gotten much better and this is proven through his regular editing. A year ago, we were regularly having to follow Saint's edits because of his grammar. As of about 6 months ago, we are no longer having to follow him around, and even his speech in our blogs and forums have gotten much more comprehensible. ForGaroux Some Assembly Required! 20:17, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
I find the clear English argument confusing in like of the amount of Dolan like speak already present and resistance to the enforcement thereof. But not really answered my question. Is there any circumstance where you think you could vote to lift any permaban? If the answer is no, then I would have to suggest that anyone who couldn't shouldn't participate as they are unwilling or unable to apply our policies. Agent c (talk) 20:30, November 7, 2013 (UTC)
Excessive Dolan is banned, not Dolan itself. If people use dolan so much that everything they say is near impossible to understand then we would act accordingly. JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 00:55, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

I don't really know what this "Dolan" is.. I think it is some kind of slang like the LOL cats or some such..

  • I don't make an effort to be odd. I am just me.
  • Sure some of the things I say are clearly role playing but even then they are just said in an honest attempt to share some fun.

If anyone could please tell me when or where I truly offended any member I would be grateful for the opportunity to try and make amends.

I do not go out of my way to be cryptic.. I have a poetic nature. I never said I was a great poet, but it is part of who I am and how I speak. If you can please tell me who I have harmed with my be'n me I will try to make it right.

SaintPain TinySaintPainHere to help." 01:37, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

That is my point, Pain, you don't intend to be like that. However, that places the actions that end up getting you banned (such as spamming) are part of your nature and, arguably, outside of your control but that doesn't make them any less bannable. Speaking non English languages (such as german) is also banned in chat, for example, and if a non-English speaking german comes in to chat and starts speaking German we would, eventually, have to kick (or possibly ban them) for a breach of the rules. This isn't their fault, but it still heavily disrupts chat and breaks the rules all the same. Good intentions is one thing, you need the ability to follow them too. JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 01:59, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

I was never banned for speaking non English or for making any verbal assault on any member or group. What part of "My nature" do you find so offensive? The mods who banned me recanted their accusations and expressed regret. Why do you still wish to fight against their will ? To the best of my recollection Jasper you never had a cause to ban me.

Can't you please just trust that if the one's who accused me can let it go then perhaps we could respect their wish? I still never been told who it is I might have offended.

SaintPain TinySaintPainHere to help." 02:18, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

You're right, I never have had to ban you. I fail to see why that matters. You say that you were ever banned for making any verbal assault on any member or group but "Your offenses included personal attacks to me"-Victor JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 02:24, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

That old log is soo long.. Are you say'n I slandered you Victor or booth.. Either way I don't recall it. Could you please quote it for me?.. Again if I ever caused harm I am more than willing to apologize.. I just really do not remember spamming.

SaintPain TinySaintPainHere to help."

Pain, I never said you've insulted or offended ME. That is an assumption you came up with yourself and one which has no basis. I am not voting no out of some petty vendetta, so please get that out of your head. JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 02:39, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

@ Jasper ~ Your link said "Quote" Your offenses included personal attacks to me "End quote" Please just tell me who you think I offended? If it was Victor it has been more than noted that Victor regretted that ban & wished he could take it back.

SaintPain TinySaintPainHere to help." 02:49, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

It was victor that said that quote, hence why I
A) quoted it
B) Credited Victor for the quote
C) linked to where victor had said it

He may have taken back what he said, but it still counts as a time where you were banned for personally attacking someone. JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 02:50, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

Secondly, you have been under the impression I had something against you since I first showed distaste in you being unbanned, so my request for you to stop asking "what have I done to offend you" stands.JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 02:55, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

Jasper.. Dude there was no attack.. Even Victor admitted it. Please quote the actual offence you seem to still see? "Please?"

If Victor recanted can't you just let it go & not blame me for things even my accusers have recanted?

  • I have been polite & most cooperative.
  • Is there any thing I could do to make this situation that has never effected you personally more acceptable ?

SaintPain TinySaintPainHere to help." 03:08, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know how you expect me to quote something that happened over a year ago, long before the chat logs were even recorded. Would you kindly point me towards where Victor "recants" this? JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 03:13, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

" Quote " I don't know how you expect me to quote something that happened over a year agon, long before the chat logs were even recorded. Would you kindly point me towards where Victor "recants" this? " End quote "

Imagine how I feel ?

  • I am not exactly computer savvy in any modern terms. You are now my accuser should you not be the one bringing factual evidence ?

{ Again please don't take offence where none is intended please? }

  • I have read all these comments, if you can't find it I bet GarouxBloodline knows where it is. I do know it was posted way back when Jspoelstra called for a ban lift last year.

I respect your right to your own opinion Jasper and I look forward to the day when this ugly business can be considered bygones.

SaintPain TinySaintPainHere to help." 03:38, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

"Icon check Being the very person that banned him, I think Saint was the victim of unfair treatment by me, as well as a ridiculous series of bans that were inconsistent to say the very least. Saint made me very angry on that day I banned him, and I believe I let emotions interfere too much in my decision making. It happens to all of us. Emotions ran high, and impulsive mistakes were made that probably wouldn't have been made if those involved ,specifically myself, had kept a level head. Although I must point out I still feel a ban on that day was necessary, it shouldn't have been a permanent one. But in the spirit of good faith, and friendship, I would like to here formally apologize to Saint for my actions and extend the olive branch of chat rights. I think he deserves one last chance. EDIT: And before I'm called out for hypocrisy or some other trivial thing, it took me a very long time to come to this conclusion. And even now I'm unsure. But I'm going with what my gut is telling me. Saint's contributions don't mean much when it comes to chat, but they count to me. VictorFaceMonitor Might I Say You're Looking Fit As a Fiddle! 03:25, October 1, 2012 (UTC)" ForGaroux Some Assembly Required! 14:58, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Leon. "Although I must point out I still feel a ban on that day was necessary"-vic. So he didn't recant the ban, nor the statement that you insulted him. So, to recap, you have in fact been banned for insulting someone.
Pain, any claim someone makes needs to be backed up, my claim was that you had insulted someone and my back up of that claim was someone saying you had insulted them (and two others who agreed). Your claim was that that comment had been reacted, which is something that needs to be proven, too. I shouldn't have to take your word that something has been recanted. Plus, you were asking me to get evidence I
Had no possible access to
Had never claimed I had
Had never seen in the first place
Was not actually supportive of my claim (I said you had been banned for insulting someone, which you had been, not that you had insulted someone.) JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?"UserRichard 00:06, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

Result

The vote passes so SaintPain gets another chance in chat. He's done everything he can to earn a second chance and deserves this banlift. I understand the no-voters' concern about his personality and chatbehaviour but we're a year later on and it's a least worth a try to see if he can adjust. So to the mods I would say give him a fair chance and be tolerant. I hope it isn't needed but as this is a special case I want to see logs if Saint is banned again (keep in mind you can also use kicks to warn) and everyone can see what happened. He deserves at least 2 chances I think. Saint, I hope you can make it work this time. We don't ask that you change your personality but try to keep yourself understandable to people, ok? Jspoel Speech Jspoel 21:02, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

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