Help[edit source]

I think I could help with this too. Spoon 19:55, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Take it easy :) -- Porter21 (talk) 20:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Nah. I've got 3 weeks of school holidays left. And trust me, I do nothing during the holidays. I'm taking the work off of you. Spoon 20:28, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm so in on this. I hate seeing stubs about NPC's, especially important ones. STAProductions 21:04, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Areas to improve[edit source]

The Fallout 3 NPC articles lack consistency. We should start by gathering a list of details about a character that each character should have, then identify how to best arrange this info in sections and finally creating a sample layout for orientation.

As such, everybody should simply list what he/she thinks needs to be present in every NPC article. -- Porter21 (talk) 20:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

List[edit source]

  • Character background. Who the character is, what he/she does, where he/she lives.
  • Relations to other NPCs. Family members, relatives, friends (as far as verifiable).
-- Porter21 (talk) 20:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Their death inventory, perhaps? (Where applicable)
Spoon 20:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Possibly their karma level (whether or not you lose or gain karma for killing them and whether or not they have a finger/ear on their body)?
16807 Compunctious Transgression (for the sake of not getting bored writing my name, I'm now going to sign myself as Zip Loc, another one of my many names)

List comments[edit source]

Both inventory/death inventory and alignment sound like reasonable additions. The only problem with the death inventories is that we'd need another GECK user for that. I think we should also pay attention to the "affiliation" fields in the infoboxes and make sure they correspond to the actual "behind-the-scenes" factions. If you look at User:Mirar/Chars, the "real" factions are listed in the "factions" field. Now I don't think we should copy/paste the actual names but we should make sure what's in the article matches what we find there. For example, for Ben Canning the affiliation should be "himself" or for Carol it should be "[[Greta]]<br>[[Carol's Place]]<br>[[Underworld]]". -- Porter21 (talk) 07:23, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Dunno, for me the "affiliation" thing was mostly intended to be used setting-wise, not gameplay-wise. Ausir(talk) 07:41, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, I don't think having a field both for faction and affiliation is very intuitive for readers. The faction info is 1) verifiable in the GECK and 2) controls the NPC's reactions to other NPCs and the player as well as the reaction to the player's actions against other members of this faction, so I think it's kind of important. -- Porter21 (talk) 07:47, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, but for example, setting-wise, the Casdin and Sibley are the same faction, while gameplay-wise, they aren't. Background-wise, Lucas Simms is a member of the Regulators, but not gameplay-wise. Not really sure if the in-game affiliation and affiliation setting-wise should be mixed. This could be counter-intuitive for readers as well. Ausir(talk) 07:50, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
I see your point. Still, for a lot of NPCs "affiliation" is completely random. For example, some town residents will have "none", some will have "himself" or "herself", some will have the town they live in etc. Anyway, I'll ditch making the affiliation field a cross-over between the current system and GECK factions. Instead I'll add a new field to the infobox where we can dump the raw factions from the GECK. It might be a good idea to structure the char template a bit by adding some sub-headers anyway. -- Porter21 (talk) 08:19, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree that it should be more standardized. Ausir(talk) 08:26, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
How about calling it something like "GECK faction" so that it's clear that it's the faction affiliation in gameplay terms? I'd actually use editor names like "UnderworldCarolAndGretaFaction" to make it more clear. Ausir(talk) 22:43, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

One thing most NPC are missing is the "actor" field in the infobox. Personally, I'm not sure this box needs to be filled in on every NPC page (as many of them have the same voice actor), just on the pages for NPCs with "non-common" voice actors, like James or Augustus Autumn. --Sentinel 101 09:21, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree, it's more an optional field than a mandatory one. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:02, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Images[edit source]

These definitely need to checked. There are a lot of crappy images on the pages of less-prominent characters (poor resolution, parts of HUD included etc). I think we should set up a convention of how to take these images and replace the crappy ones.

In my opinion, a standardized look is easiest to achieve if the images are taken when in dialogue with the NPC (HUD disabled, of course). Then you can simply cut the image to the required aspect ratio (I usually use 1.4:1) and the images will end up looking fairly uniform. Comments? -- Porter21 (talk) 15:02, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

A great idea for a uniform appearance, and easy to achieve as well. -- CapAp 20:11, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

If there's any image editing needed to be done just let me know, I'm pretty good when it comes to photo editing sadly I only have Fallout 3 for the console.--FLaSHBaCK HaSH 16:05, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Layout[edit source]

What about page layouts? A lot I see have random headers and then the usual ones. Here's what I think:

//--TehK (tok) 14:05, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

That box seems familiar :P Anyway, looks like a decent start. I'm not sure we need to mention the "appears in Fallout 3 bit in the intro sentence; after all, we have an "Appearances" section where that's mentioned and it's also in the infobox (I realize that it is this way currently in the createpage template). I think the intro sentence should include the race and area of residence/location for the character, i.e. something like "XYZ is a human non-player character who lives in ZYX." Alternatively, we could replace the "non-player character" bit with the faction where appropriate ("...human raider...", "...human member of the Brotherhood of Steel..."), leaving the generic NPC text for characters who don't belong to a notable faction.
In addition, I think Background should definitely include who the character is, what he/she does, and relations to other NPCs (family members, relatives, friends - as far as verifiable). It's possible you meant to include that but I think it needs to be made clear.
It's probably better to also have an inventory section in there; their inventory is going to get added by various people anyway so we might as well do it consistently. User:Mirar/Chars includes inventory lists for every NPC from base FO3 so it should be doable for people who play on console as well. All people with a GECK need to double-check is the death inventories as these are not included there and the inventories of add-on characters; that should be manageable. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:02, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not fond of using words like "NPC" or the game they're from in the intro myself - I prefer it if it's from the in-universe perspective, e.g. "Lucas Simms is the sheriff and occasionally the mayor of Megaton, a town built around an undetonated nuclear bomb." instead of "Lucas Simms is an NPC that appears in Fallout 3". Ausir(talk) 22:47, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
By the way, I think we should decide on a basic layout for character and location (and other) pages common for all games, not just Fallout 3. Maybe we should create "Unified page layout project" to coordinate this? Ausir(talk) 23:08, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Created. See: The Vault talk:Unified page layout project. I suggest moving the discussion there. Ausir(talk) 23:54, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

As a result of the Unified page layout project, the standard layout is now up on the project page. I'll write up a sample article later today, then we should be good to go :) -- Porter21 (talk) 10:26, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Reliable Source[edit source]

Many character pages suffered from lack of reliable sources. Reliable sources include official publications (Not fan contents), developer's statement, terminals, dialogues, notes on the pip-boy 3000, radio stations and info found on GECK. For example, Mei Wong is afraid of the slaver, named Sister that is a resident of Rivet City, as evidenced by the note found on the pip-boy 3000. That's an example of reliable source. --Like-minded 14:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

The question is always which material needs sourcing. To use your example, Mei Wong also tells you the same thing in simple dialogue. -- Porter21 (talk) 14:20, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't really think we need to cite things stated by a given character in their dialogue. I usually only cite sources if a given statement is not from the game but e.g. from a dev or from the official guide. Ausir(talk) 14:34, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, pretty much the same here. Occasionally I also cite terminal entries when referring to really out-of-the-way information but that's pretty much it. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:22, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Ready to go[edit source]

All guidelines have been written, a sample article is available and the progress tables have been created. This means the concept phase is over and people can now start editing articles. Have fun :) -- Porter21 (talk) 13:21, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Inventory tables...[edit source]

Let's say I fill in nothing but inventory tables on a page (which I probably will; I just luuurv items). Which bit of the progress table would I mark? Nitty 19:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I've added a field in the table for that. -- Porter21 (talk) 07:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion: shouldn't the "armor" section of the Inventory table more accurately be retitled "Apparel"? -- CapAp 22:03, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Changed. -- Porter21 (talk) 07:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Combat[edit source]

Should that be considered a tactics section that goes to the discussion page? That section seems to get edited alot. Let me know what you guys think. If it stays we need to add it to the little template on the project page--Kingclyde 23:56, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Could you link to an example? -- Porter21 (talk) 07:32, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
Checkout Charon's talk page. The ToC Combat used to be in the article. Seems to bulky and similar to tactics and /or opinions. Let me know. If you want it back in the article, which ToC would it go under? RL-3 has a similar section.--Kingclyde 16:55, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
I'd keep the more objective details and put them in a "As a follower" subsection of "Occupation and activities" - only those which are unique to Charon, of course (a lot of the stuff in there applies to all NPCs, like firing at corpses). Just my opinion though. -- Porter21 (talk) 22:03, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

"Background" vs "Occupation and activities"[edit source]

It seems to me that this part of the guideline is not working out in practice, mostly because there's usually an overlap between a character's occupation and background. This results in content which could feasibly be put in both.

What do you think about revising the guideline and merging occupation with the "Background" section while only leaving the daily schedule in a renamed "Occupation and activities" called "Daily schedule"? The difference between the sections seems more clear to me this way. -- Porter21 (talk) 08:46, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

The idea of merging them may be a good idea for some NPC's but not others. An example of a bad NPC to combine the two on would be Dave. He has a rich background and that should be separate. His occupation as "Mr. President Daddy" should be laid out separate. Dead NPC's should not have an "occupation and activities" due to the fact that they are dead. Daily schedule is vague and could open the article to being filled with stuff like "Mr Crowley spend exactly 3 hours a day in the Ninth Circle" or silly info like that. That's just an example, I doubt someone would add that but I'm using it to make a point. Kinda.--Kingclyde 17:32, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Well, I do think that where you can find a NPC is interesting info, and describing their wanderings during the day does just that. If you take UESPWiki, every of their Oblivion NPCs has his or her daily schedule described and I don't think it's detrimental to the articles.
The simple fact is that most people do not use the "Occupation and activities" section at all, even if there is applicable info for it. This is caused by the fact you can put some stuff in both and in a lot of cases splitting it interrupts the flow of an article. -- Porter21 (talk) 18:28, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Well dog gone it! If it looks ok on the other site then is should work here. It's up to you in the end. I can't access that site from work, but if it works and looks decent then by all means lets go with it.--Kingclyde 18:59, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Just to clarify, I was talking about the daily schedules only (not the section structure). Their character articles do not have many sections at all. An example for a schedule paragraph I pulled from one of their articles:
"He spends most of his time in the private quarters of Anvil Castle, only venturing outside from 2pm to 5pm each day when he heads to the Anvil Mages Guild. Between 8pm and midnight he attends the Countess' formal dinner. He then retires to his room, where he spends most of the night mixing potions and researching necromancy, finally sleeping from 6am to midday."
If you have ideas on how to arrange the content in sections, by all means voice them. I don't have to come up with everything :) I just think the current one is less than optimal. -- Porter21 (talk) 21:39, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
I thought we weren't UESP. ;) Anyway, this sounds like a good idea, especially when we're talking about the Family and the kids in Lamplight, who both have very odd schedules. Nitty 21:45, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Well, we aren't UESP. That doesn't mean everything they do is bad, far from it. I'm just not a fan of the namespace-wiki concept (and some other stuff). -- Porter21 (talk) 21:57, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Namespace? What kind of regulations are those?! Nitty 22:00, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Namespaces are something you'll find at every wiki. For example, "Talk", "Image", "Portal" or "Forum" are namespaces at our wiki (see Help:Namespace). The difference between a so-called namespace wiki and a "standard" wiki is that the first has multiple namespaces for articles, while the latter has only one (the one without prefixes). For example, at UESP all Oblivion-related articles are prefixed with "Oblivion:", all Morrowind articles with "Morrowind:" etc. But, enough off-topic stuff now. -- Porter21 (talk) 22:07, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
"Occupation" can be listed in a word or two, e.g. "Megaton Doctor," so it could be added to the infobox. "Activities" is pretty broad and vague, overlapping not only with Background but also with Interactions w/Lone Wanderer. "Daily Schedule" is conceivably a useful category when it comes to locating npcs.--Gothemasticator 22:19, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Well, there's a field in the infobox for that ("role") but that doesn't mean the occupation shouldn't be mentioned in the article text - it's important information about the character. Infobox and article content are not mutually exclusive; infoboxes summarize an article and contain numerical and technical data that's awkward to express in written text, they do not replace the articles. -- Porter21 (talk) 22:30, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, but another place occupation info can easily go is in the topic sentence of the article. "Pagename is the Megaton doctor." I'm just trying to point out that Occupation is best listed in a word or two and so doesn't seem to me to benefit from being coupled with Activities. Coupling the two doesn't exactly encourage clear and concise listing of the npc's occupation.--Gothemasticator 22:43, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, that's what I meant - I agree with your point regarding occupation in the lead sentence. So, in summary:
  • "Occupation and activities" gets renamed to "Daily schedule" and becomes a non-mandatory section.
  • "Background" becomes mandatory and now includes detail information about the occupation/profession if there is any to be given.
Everybody fine with that? -- Porter21 (talk) 09:23, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
I'll be the first of everybody to agree. :)-- 09:39, September 22, 2009 (UTC)Forgot to log in.--Gothemasticator 09:43, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
Sounds good. Ausir(talk) 12:02, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
Indeed. HOLD! RELEASETIME! 12:04, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Project guideline modified. -- Porter21 (talk) 09:48, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Infobox - Ordering and Alignment[edit source]

How important is consistency in the order of infobox entries? Right now there is wide variation. Should we be paying closer attention to this?--Gothemasticator 01:59, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

The project page lists Alignment as a necessary entry in the infobox. I notice this is missing from many pages. Is there a resource aside from GECK for finding this info? Related: Shouldn't it be called "Karma?"--Gothemasticator 01:59, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

It was added recently and alot of the NPC's infoboxes have not been redone yet. It's listed as alignment in the GECK. Plus if it is karma, then we would have to change the entry. So currently when you look at alignment, you think "ok they are good alignment which means an ear" or "they are evil which will net a finger". If the alignment of a person is good, and we change it to karma, we would have to change the box to bad dur to the fact that you would incur bad karma. That would just confuse the people.--Kingclyde 02:04, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
So, my confusion seems to stem from the fact that "alignment" in the infobox code presents as "karma" in the infobox on the article page. See Moira Brown.--Gothemasticator 02:59, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
I see what you mean now. Hmm, Porter, can you do anything about this?--Kingclyde 05:24, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
Well, I can change the infobox label to "alignment" if you think that's better. -- Porter21 (talk) 08:20, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
I started this question with my own confusion. I think it's fine if the label reads "Karma" in the infobox. Kingclyde has some reasoning for it reading as "Alignment," but I don't think we actually use that term anywhere in the wiki.--Gothemasticator 09:01, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Mezzing?[edit source]

Might we want to add on the table a a mezzability section?

Question[edit source]

If I were to edit a page on the project, but that's already been edited by another, do I erase the old users check and replace it with mine, simply add mine or wait for a and see if the edit is deemed ok by another user? For example, the recent edits I did on Ramsey. --SSDGFCTCT9 20:04, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

Fingers and Ears[edit source]

I am noticing an inconsistent approach across the wiki toward listing fingers and ears in Inventory boxes under "On Death." Seems to me that those items are perk-specific and so shouldn't be included in the Inventory. If people agree, perhaps we could update the project guidelines page to mention that? It would also be good for us project participants to be on the same page for consistency's sake. What does everybody think? Thanks.--Gothemasticator 20:30, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

It would make sense to add a section about it, like a heading saying Finger or Ear, with the answers being either Finger, Ear or neither, it's not great but it would be good to have something similar. - RASICTalk 20:37, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Peer Review/Finished Status not going so well[edit source]

I've been going over the status of the npc pages, and I notice that our checklists are not very accurate. Check out Amata, for example. (EDIT: You'll have to check the "History," because I have made some recent progress on the page.) Sections are not titles correctly, nor are they in the correct order. Much of the "Background" section should be in the non-existant "Interactions with the player character" section, as should the "Trouble on the Homefront" section. We should be using {{main|Quest Title}} in the "Interactions" section along with appropriately titled subsections for characters who are involved with multiple quests. Extra pics should go in a "Gallery" section at the bottom.

Also, I notice that fingers/ears and mezzability are handled inconsistently across the wiki. I propose we adopt a standard of listing both as the top two entries under "Notes" for completeness and consistency.

What do y'all think?--Gothemasticator 21:06, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

I wish to add that what has been done so far is great improvement! The above is not so much a complaint as it is a mid-game rally. Let's push on strong.--Gothemasticator 21:18, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
I think this is an exceptionaly good idea as it will make the wiki: A. easier to use for non-editors and editors. B. Cleaning a page up will be made a bit simpler. :)--Vault4 21:09, December 7, 2009 (UTC):)
Well, I'm glad someone else noticed the section naming/ordering problems as well as the issues of putting stuff in the proper sections. I completely agree with your assessment; after all, the main goal of this project is to make the pages more streamlined and consistent. In addition to what you already mentioned, in a lot of cases the "Notes" section contains content which should be in other standard sections (usually "Interactions" or "Background"). I already felt a bit like a broken record since I kept mentioning it and people kept ignoring it ;)
Regarding fingers/ears, I honestly think we do not need to list them at all for two reasons: They are 1) dependent on the player having certain perks and 2) a direct function of a character's alignment (which should be listed in the infobox anyway), i.e. all "evil"/"very evil" NPCs drop a finger, all "good"/"very good" NPCs drop an ear. I think if this mechanic is described on the perk pages (and/or the item pages for Ear and Finger), the alignment info is sufficient for people being able to see whether the NPC drops a finger or ear.
Concerning mezzability, I understand your point but I think it belongs in the "Interactions" section and not in "Notes". -- Porter21 (talk) 21:37, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
Just to add, it's good to see the project is going places :) I'll try to pull my weight a bit more, unfortunately I have a tendency to get sidetracked by my bazillion personal projects ;) -- Porter21 (talk) 21:48, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. So, I will begin removing fingers/ears mentions and moving mezzability into Interactions when I see them. (Maybe someday I'll have the energy to systematically go through the Bugs sections... Nah, probably not.)--Gothemasticator 22:53, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Generic NPC pages[edit source]

I've made a showcase for articles about generic NPCs (i.e. NPCs without a real name). In my opinion, it doesn't make much sense to have different pages for e.g. all 50+ "Raider" NPCs or all equally numerous "Wastelander" variants. I'm also not fond of having multiple infoboxes in articles, it doesn't look very professional and usually causes a lot of whitespace. Instead, I've opted for a table-based layout listing all variants of the NPCs in question with its core stats and inventory. Feedback appreciated :) -- Porter21 (talk) 20:08, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Certainly an improvement!--Gothemasticator 20:12, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the "race" column in the table since it's redundant with the infobox field. If the setup is ok with everyone, I'll see about making a template for the table and start changing the generic NPC pages accordingly. -- Porter21 (talk) 13:31, December 9, 2009 (UTC)
Moved showcase to The Vault:Fallout 3 NPC overhaul project/generic NPC sample and updated project guidelines. I'm still undecided whether I should use a template for the stat table; while it ensures a consistent look across all generic NPC pages, it's probably more complicated to use than a simple table. -- Porter21 (talk) 11:16, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Categories[edit source]

Just a suggestion: Perhaps if an NPC offers services to the player, a category for that could be added which contains a list of all NPCs who offer that service to the player. For example, Category:Merchant (or maybe Vendor). -Benjamin Malin 22:21, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Through A-C[edit source]

I got through all the As, Bs, and Cs today. Layout; Inventory; Gallery; culling bugs and notes (except bugs on Cross's page is still a huge mess - ran out of steam).

I know that they are already checked off on the progress table, but there were only maybe three npcs from A-C that did not require some substantial edit.

Will pick up again soon where I left off.--Gothemasticator 03:12, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Project leader[edit source]

Just FYI, Gothemasticator will take over project leadership. He's doing more project leadership work than me anyway, so I figured we might as well make it official :) -- Porter21 (talk) 20:27, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Project ready to move ahead[edit source]

A few things that might could use some input/feedback, and then a push forward on this project.

Bugs[edit source]

The Fallout 3 bugs article is now reorganized. As a result, it will be easier for project participants to cull the Bugs sections of NPC articles.

  • Remove these kinds of bugs in particular:
    • Graphical glitches: heads spinning, guns upside-down, bodies stretching, etc. These are not unique to any one NPC.
    • Unexplained Aggro: All followers exhibit this, and we do not need to list it.
    • Any of the general or common bugs found on the main bug article page.
  • Megaton residents should still get a bug entry about their dying/going missing problem. See Andy Stahl for a good wording.
  • Let's not list infinite fingers/ears or infinite XP from Mister Sandman on NPC pages. Instead, note and link that the character is marked essential.
  • Do allow entries of usually excluded bugs if their presence can disrupt the NPC's role in a quest. See, for instance, Bryan Wilks.

Notes[edit source]

Many Notes sections are out of hand. Let's rein them in.

  • Incorporate notes into Background or Interactions wherever possible.
  • Reword notes for clarity and brevity.
  • Remove notes whose info is duplicated in Inventory or the Infobox. For instance, remove notes describing the karma of (or karma cost/benefit for killing) NPCs.

Quotes[edit source]

Argh! These sections bug me in particular. We really should only list quotes that are

  • unique to that NPC.
  • notable (i.e, even a unique way of saying, "Pineapple! Run!" is not notable in my book).
  • In general, we should only list a handful (5 is a good general upper limit rule of thumb) of quotes.
  • Let's remove the qualifiers from quotes (e.g., "when searching for an enemy" and "random"). When not incorrect, these are often not helpful info either.

Does anyone know or have a collection of the shared quotes? That would be a handy resource.

How best to move ahead[edit source]

I considered removing checkmarks from the progress tables, since I have found many pages marked complete which clearly are not. However, I think that would be demoralizing and counter-productive.

I think that participants should move ahead by tackling unchecked NPCs on the progress table. Continue to add checkmarks to tasks completed. I will go back through the completed ones, fixing where needed, and paying more attention to bugs and notes sections.

I do ask that the Peer Review column be taken a bit more seriously. A peer review is not something to be done in a moment or two. Placing a check in that column signals to the rest of us that the article is finished (as far as the project goes), so we probably won't pay any more attention to it. So, take your time on reviews, being picky, and fixing anything you find that wasn't done.

Feel free to respond below, voice any concerns for the project, etc. Let's make a good strong push toward finishing this important project!--Gothemasticator 10:10, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Fingers and ears[edit source]

Just a reminder. We are not listing fingers and ears on NPC pages. Their presence is dependent on the relevant perks, so are not present for everyone. The perk pages contain the relevant info.--Gothemasticator 21:12, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Finers and ears are now handled by the Interactions template. Please see further below.--Gothemasticator 00:19, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Responses to the above[edit source]

I think adding new colums for the bugs, notes and quotes would make editing them a lot simpler and quicker. If this is done, a link to the main page for bugs should be added to the project page.--Vault4 20:44, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the input! I'm not convinced, however, that adding more columns to our progress table will help. I think we need to
  • become more aware of these sections as we're editing (and the above content should help with that), and
  • when doing peer reviews, take care to read through these sections to make sure they have been reduced as appropriate.
--Gothemasticator 10:55, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Pictures of NPCs.[edit source]

Which pictures are more appropriate, full body shots, a screen shot with menu disabled, etc. And is the standard screenshot size ok?

Porter is the one to ask about pics.--Gothemasticator 07:52, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Progress![edit source]

A-F Done[edit source]

With two tiny exceptions: Dead slave and Davis West both need pics for their infoboxes. Would someone with the GECK installed mind adding those? Thanks. Oh, and, when you do, please add a checkmark to the "Complete" column. Everything else on those pages is done.

A-F progress table entries on the project page are marked completed. Please direct your efforts to NPCs from later on in the alphabet.--Gothemasticator 09:26, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Davis West and his wife appear only as skeletons as far as I recall - an ingame picture would be better here than a GECK one (similar to Grady's). I've added the Dead Slave image. -- Porter21 (talk) 08:26, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
And Birdie94jb added a pic for Davis West. Thanks, Birdie!--Gothemasticator 22:45, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

G-L Proceeds Done[edit source]

I have finished going through the G-L section of the progress tables. Whew! (EDIT: And I got Liberty Prime done just in time for it's appearance as the featured article! Yay!)

Help needed: John (Fallout 3)[edit source]

John is missing a ref id.--Gothemasticator 07:15, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Relatedly, does John Henry Eden even have a ref id? If he does, his page is also missing the entry.--Gothemasticator 09:04, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
Everything in FO3 has a ref ID :) I'll try to get these two; John's is a bit tricky because you have to get the encounter first (his ingame name is just "Wastelander", so the usual console dump with all FO3 IDs is a bit useless for him). On a related note, I think his article should be merged into the generic Wastelander one (on the mystical day where I finally get round to reworking the generic NPC pages). -- Porter21 (talk) 10:43, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
Added Eden's. Don't think it makes sense to list John's; he's spawned "on-the-fly" when the encounter is triggered, so his ref ID should be different in each game. -- Porter21 (talk) 10:55, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Porter.--Gothemasticator 11:07, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Help needed: Knick Knack, Knock Knock and Lucy[edit source]

All three of these pages need better pictures. And, if you add them, would you please mark those pages finished on the progress charts? Everything else is done. Thanks.--Gothemasticator 07:51, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Ph03n1x, for the Knick Knack and Knock Knock pics!--Gothemasticator 08:16, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Help needed: Lug-Nut[edit source]

Lug-Nut's infobox image has in-game text on the screen. Anyone got a good pic to replace it with? Thanks.--Gothemasticator 11:16, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Help needed: Peer Reviews[edit source]

I did not check Peer Review or Done boxes on the progress table for articles on which I had done substantial work. I would appreciate it if some other participants would look over the work and check pages as reviewed and done. Thank you.--Gothemasticator 11:21, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Infoboxes: More guidelines[edit source]

As per recent input by Nitty, let's begin paying attention to the following:

  • Actor: should be present and, if actor is not yet known, leave as "actor=" not as "actor=empty"
  • Alignment: should be present and, if unknown, leave as "alignment=" not as "alignment=empty"
  • Quest: should be present, filled in with appropriate quest or as "quest=empty" (Edited to incorporate the below.)
    Thanks, Nitty!--Gothemasticator 21:57, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
The "alignment" section is finicky, it requires a lowercase "a". It won't work with an uppercase "A". Make sure that it gets fixed. Also, I never said that about quests. "quest=empty" is a lot more nice-looking than "quest=None.", as it cuts down on superfluous sections. Nitty Tok. 21:46, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Now that we have the Interactions template, which places a big red X next to quests, I agree with Nitty. The above changed accordingly. I just want the info that this NPC is not involved in any quest to be present somewhere in the article.--Gothemasticator 22:47, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Keeping the project going[edit source]

Hi, and thank you to all project participants for continued work on NPC article pages! I'd like to point out in particular User:Shadowrunner56 who continues to make frequent helpful edits on NPC pages.

Grinding through the progress tables[edit source]

Real life has kept me busy in the last week or so, and progress through the tables has slowed as a result. If I can fit it in this weekend, I might be able to start plowing through M-R. I encourage all participants to take up the torch as well. Let's get this project wrapped up (at least before New Vegas content overwhelms us!).--Gothemasticator 22:00, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Alphabetisation (or Alphabetization for you Americans out there)[edit source]

If you like, I could alphabetise the list of participants of this project (whilst leaving Gothemesticator at the top, as leader). Hell, if you like, I could do it for all the other current projects as well. Hit me back on that. 5chiz0 18:03, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea, go for it... wait isn't Nitty the leader? User_AreYouGoingToEatThatNuke%3F_Game_image_4028.gif - Nuke Eater Blab 18:07, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

It says Goth is. One way or another, I did it. I guess I'll use it on the other projects as well. 5chiz0 19:16, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

ta-da! I have alphabetised the participant list of every project. Tedious, but it looks better. 5chiz0 20:05, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

I am indeed the project leader.--Gothemasticator 22:04, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Birthdates[edit source]

Any mentions of the character's age, like in Bryan Wilks or Derek Pacion, should not be in the intro section but in the Background section, and converted to years (2277-the age), like I just did at Ernest Roe. Please also add the dates to the Birthdates article. Ausir(talk) 01:00, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Checklist tables[edit source]

How about adding it to the checklist tables? Ausir(talk) 10:35, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

So are we starting this over again? --Kingclyde 10:41, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
Well, obviously articles that were considered "done" now have to have this added. Perhaps Porter could use the bot to add empty interaction tables to every article. Ausir(talk) 11:07, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
That might be a good idea. Other than that, it looks like I may need to coffee. I need to start getting into this wiki again. --Kingclyde 11:12, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
I've unexpectedly been swamped with things keeping me busy in RL, but I can look into it on the weekend. -- Porter21 (talk) 13:43, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
Alright, I've had the bot add the following to all existing "Interactions" sections:
===Interactions overview===
{{Fallout 3 NPC overhaul project interactions}}
{{Interactions FO3
|essential       =
|enslave         =
|ear             =
|finger          =
|temp follower   =
|perm follower   =
|wares           =
|caps            =
|max condition   =
|heal            =
|cure addiction  =
|cure radiation  =
|rent            =
|quests started  =
|quests involved =

===Related quests===

===Other interactions===

===Effects of player actions===

It's also adding new "Interactions" sections with the content above to all articles which had an "Inventory" section (but no "Interactions"). A couple of articles might be missed, but most should have empty interactions templates then. I've also added a new column to the progress tables. I haven't updated the project guidelines or the general character guideline yet; if someone could do that it'd be appreciated. -- Porter21 (talk) 13:28, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Since Nitty made me aware that the RTE removes empty fields upon saving the page, I've had the bot alter the default settings for the template. The fields are now set to "no" or "-" by default. -- Porter21 (talk) 16:21, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

"Protected"?[edit source]

BTW, how about a field like "protected" or something, for whether attacking the character will turn a town/faction hostile? Ausir(talk) 11:24, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well, as far as I understand the faction mechanics attacking any member of a faction will turn other members of that faction hostile, i.e. a field like that would basically be set to "yes" for almost every character. I think that the technical faction data should be listed somewhere but I think the infobox would be more suited for this. -- Porter21 (talk) 17:12, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Essential[edit source]

"Essential" is currently a "yes"/"no" type field. Maybe it would make more sense to change it to a text field so info like "until XYZ" or "during quest X" could be included, as some characters are only essential for certain periods of time. You'd just have to settle on a couple of standard texts for the content. Opinions? -- Porter21 (talk) 12:44, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good, especially for odd characters like Desmond Lockheart and Armitage. Nitty Tok. 19:33, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
Updated template to allow for custom text in the "essential" field. -- Porter21 (talk) 13:04, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Landlord[edit source]

I've switched {{Interactions FO3}} to using the new meta-template for interaction charts today. This should only be an "under-the-hood" change with little consequence to users, but if you notice any bugs please let me know.

I've also added a new field to the template: rent. This is for NPCs who rent out rooms or beds, and the input should be the amount of caps they charge for the room/bed. I'll have my bot add it to the existing interaction tables. -- Porter21 (talk) 14:29, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Shrapnel[edit source]

Could somebody please "unprotect" the Shrapnel NPC page? I'm trying to Peer Assess it, but I can't. 5chiz0 12:18, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

I've unprotected it. Please let us know when you've finished the peer review so another admin can apply the protection again (it's unfortunately necessary since some people have problems accepting Flak and Shrapnel are homosexuals). -- Porter21 (talk) 13:43, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
While we're at it, would you like a new image for the profile pic, without text? Ph03n1x 13:52, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
Just for the record (since you've already exchanged the image :)), all images with parts of the HUD or text in them should be replaced. -- Porter21 (talk) 17:12, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
If anyone does find NPC profile images with text or cursor overlay, it may be a good idea to tag the page with {{badimage}}, as this will bring it to attention in two ways; the recent changes, and image needed pages.    phoenix     txt    data   00:45, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

New template for interactions sections![edit source]

Porter21 has created a brand new template for us! It creates a wonderfully useful table of information for our "Interactions with the player character" section. See Template:Interactions_FO3 for the copy/paste and some examples.

This will really help us consolidate those loose notes about mezzability and essentialness, as well as further help us keep control of quest info on NPC pages. Thanks, Porter!

We should all go ahead and start incorporating this new template in our NPC project work. It will take us all a little time to get used to it, but the result will be worth it.--Gothemasticator 08:49, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Hail Porter.
Also, do we completely remove all the text in the Interactions section and just plug the box in, like I did on Ernest Roe? Nitty Tok. 21:44, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
We'll probably have a little back-and-forth over this question as we start to implement the template. However, I think further text is only necessary when there is something notable to say about the NPC him/herself that is not covered in the relevant quest articles. Ernest Roe looks great as you have done.--Gothemasticator 22:44, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Alright, thanks. I'll get to filling in some background sections with my new handy-dandy guide. Nitty Tok. 22:53, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
There's a bit of previous discussion on the "box-only or not" subject. I'll just go ahead and copy/paste the relevant bits from Ausir's and my talk page. Feel free to voice your opinion and continue the discussion :) -- Porter21 (talk) 10:24, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
For characters with non-standard interactions, the section could be split into "General interactions" (with the template) and "Other interactions" with a description of the special stuff. What do you think? -- Porter21 (talk) 18:38, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
Looks good. Although for characters who are involved in quests I'd also have a section for each of these quests. Ausir(talk) 18:40, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
I don't know, I'd rather not repeat stuff which should be on the quest page - it just leads to conflicting and/or incomplete info. If anything, I'd rather include a brief mention in the "Background" section if the quest is significant to the character's backstory. For example, in Moira Brown's case I'd simply put "In 2277, she is looking for an assistant to help her write a Wasteland Survival Guide." -- Porter21 (talk) 19:06, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
And I'd prefer it as it is now - one or so paragraph of summary of the character's role in the quest, with {{main}} linking to the quest page itself. I think it gives you a better overview of the character in question, while not going into quest walkthrough details. Ausir(talk) 19:09, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
Well, the short sections always lead to people adding details to them. I tried to maintain short intro sections for the unmarked quests for a long time, but eventually I gave up since people just kept adding stuff in the wrong place (the article with the short intro section) despite there being a comment not to do it.
Plus as I already said, as far as the quests flesh out the character it can go into "Background". In the Brown example, her experiments, disregard for the life ort her assistants and the desire to write a book are part of the character's background and personality, as is her getting sent a Replicated Man holotape because she's versed in mechanics. I'd rather have a good "Background" section than splitting the info across multiple sections. -- Porter21 (talk) 19:22, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
Well, for me the quest details is exactly what should go in the interactions sections, as it can details various outcomes etc. depending on your actions, which for me would feel out of place in the more in-universe background sections. Background for me was exactly for details that do not change based on your actions, while everything else should always go under interactions. That's how I've always used it myself. Ausir(talk) 19:26, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I agree that the "results" part should be in there. I'd rather have a bulleted list with one or two sentences each than own sections for each quest with a quest description. How about:

-- Porter21 (talk) 20:00, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Sounds better, but I still prefer not to have to read through the whole quest page to have a general idea of the role of a character I'm reading about in each quest. Ausir(talk) 20:03, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
Final suggestion:
-- Porter21 (talk) 21:30, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
OK. :) Ausir(talk) 22:45, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
The "Final Suggestion" setup looks good to me. There's still room for bloat to occur, but, hey - it's a wiki. The template will really help streamline the NPC pages, though. No more straggling mezzability notes, yay! BTW, "enslavable" linked as you have it is a clever solution to the phraseology.--Gothemasticator 10:16, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Now that the above is in place thanks to Porter's bot, I've been getting a taste for how it's being used. And I think the template can be adjusted for the better.

  • "Related quests" has been encouraging people just to list the quests, which is redundant. I'd favor something more descriptive, like "quest involvement summaries."
  • Likewise, "other interactions" and "effects of the player character's actions" are redundant simply because no one can tell what belongs in one or the other. I favor "non-quest interactions" to solve the problem.
  • Take a look at A wanderer and Abraham Washington to see it in action.

I'd like a little more feedback and discussion on this question.--Gothemasticator 09:48, March 19, 2010 (UTC)

Please see James, where I have implemented the current template, incorporating info into all three subsections as they exist now. It works, but I still think merging the "Other intereactions" and "Effects" subsections is a good idea. It would not detract at all from the readability or clarity of James' page to merge the two. As it stands now, I think we're introducing a distinction without any real difference.--Gothemasticator 20:46, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
I agree with renaming the "Related quests" section. I'll have the bot make any change that is agreed on; I only used my own suggestions because I didn't have the time to wait for the result of a discussion before leaving.
Regarding "Other interactions" and "effects of player actions", I'd just like to explain how I meant these to be used before the discussion continues. "Effects of player actions" was meant to list all player actions which can have an effect on the status of the character in question, both directly and indirectly. It wasn't meant to be a third category of interactions (if that makes any sense), more an "additional info" section. I figured that listing these seperately would help to stop the quest interaction sections from becoming bloated, and that it would also allow us to list effects on the character which are not the result of a direct interaction with the character. As an example for the latter, the effect of the player's choice in The Power of the Atom on Moira Brown and the effect which the player choosing to kill Moriarty has on Gob were two examples I was thinking of. Neither of these are the result of the player interacting with the affected character directly, and I wouldn't consider Moira as being involved in The Power of the Atom. Just as a clarification.
On a sidenote, for the quest involvement section I'd personally prefer the "Quest name/link: Description of interaction" list format I used above instead of going into h4 headings and using {{main}}. Might just be personal preference, but I think it might help with keeping these sections brief and concise (plus h4 headings are hard to tell apart from h3 ones). -- Porter21 (talk) 18:23, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
Seems I killed the discussion - I should really stop posting such walls of text :P Anyway, let me know how you want the headings to be changed and I'll set the bot on it. -- Porter21 (talk) 09:38, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Quotations template discussion[edit source]

Please see Liberty Prime Sample and Jericho Sample to view new quotation templates in action, courtesy of Ph03n1x. Jericho's page shows a green-background template without an mbox above it, as well as displaying a red link to a non-existant quotes page. Liberty Prime sample shows a quotation template with a simple light gray border, a blue link to the quotes page, and an mbox present.--Gothemasticator 06:19, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

Edited the above sandbox entries so there are now two different styles to see. My issue with the current quotations template (as far as possible implementation on FO3 NPC pages) is that without a border or background color it looks unanchored, while all the other formatting on the page is well-defined and sectioned (that's not jargon, just me trying to be descriptive). In any case, I'd appreciate a look at the gray border, white background Liberty Prime one. If enough people just don't want any change at all, I'll just drop the idea. (But I'm not quite ready to yet. :) )--Gothemasticator 18:44, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

I, personally, prefer the quotation template in use already, it looks more fluent.--Vault4 15:43, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I prefer the current one as well. Ausir(talk) 16:32, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
Well, personally I like the less "boxy" current version. I guess it's a matter of personal taste, but I tried out various box versions when I last updated the template and never really liked any of them. Glad to see some other people daring to pick up template work though :) -- Porter21 (talk) 17:58, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
Same here. Ausir(talk) 18:06, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
Great. Thanks for discussion. I'll consider it consensus to leave the current template as is. Cheers.--Gothemasticator 20:42, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Quotes sections[edit source]

Limiting quotes isn't working very well. People just add them back in, and it becomes a constant maintenance task.

What would y'all think about

  • adopting the FO and FO2 practice of one stylized quote at the top of the page,
  • doing away with the quotes section entirely,
  • and creating a new page: Fallout 3 character quotes?

See Liberty Prime for a look at what this would look like. --Gothemasticator 08:45, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

I get the impression that people see the quotes list, find it incomplete or know of a "good one" that's missing, and feel compelled to complete and/or add it. Look at the Super Mutant page for example, and I know the Jericho and Liberty Prime pages are commonly regarded by quote-adders as being deficient. The use of the term Quotes, in itself, for the section gives no indicator to an editor about the level of detail required regarding inclusion; in fact it would suggest that a complete reference is a potentially desired outcome. In comparison, you have Notable loot, which automatically suggests a special and smaller subsection than what would be contained in Loot. The stylised quote is a nice technique that captures an aspect of the character, but doesn't offer the same depth of diversity, so a character quotes page would provide the quote-adders with an outlet for their expression and input, although I suspect there would be a substantial page resultant :)   phoenix  txt  xp  10:01, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

I have made two examples of a course of action we could take, check them before deciding what your opinion is: Liberty Prime quotes and Vault 87 Super Mutant Quotes. Enjoy--Vault4 12:30, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Gothemasticator's proposed idea is a strong way forward. If this way is decided to be used, I will happily enjoy making the quotes pages.Vault4 12:33, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

I have also cracked the code of how to make the quote pages easy to find, see List of Fallout 3 NPC Quote pages.Vault4 12:49, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

It has occured to me that it is only a subset of NPC pages that have the runaway quotes sections, mainly Followers, Liberty Prime, the super mutants, and... (any others? or is that it?). All other NPC pages I'm pretty sure could have the Quotations template added and the Quotes section removed without hassle or argument. See James, for example. (Although a better quote could be chosen.) Even though he talks a lot in this game, no one has been inclined to fill up his quotes section. I think it's because the lure of the quotes sections is the one-liners.

What I think this means is that it wouldn't be too bad to have a quotes page for each of the followers, plus Liberty Prime and the super mutants.--Gothemasticator 18:12, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

I think one of the factors that influences this is the very limited custom dialogue added to most characters. An example is the concise quotes section on the Brotherhood Outcasts page - many characters or factions have even less. Battle factions that have a varied verbal capacity also tend to be recorded - super mutants and robots for example. Raiders, Talon Company Mercs and the Enclave seem to have been left out.
Robot class pages of mention:
Mister Gutsy - Protectron - Robobrain - Sentry Bot - Mister Handy
Some other pages featuring quotes, that while not being of excessive size, incorporate ones of dubious notability - Pitt raider (character) for example.   phoenix  txt  xp  00:18, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

Should I create any more quote pages like I already have then. if I should, which ones?--Vault4 20:09, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Vault4, I would hold off until we can discuss this further. The two pages you created give us a pretty good look at what one method of doing this might look like. But I want to think about it some more, and I'd really like the discussion to go on long enough to hear from everybody who cares and to hopefully reach a consensus.--Gothemasticator 04:15, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
I tend to agree with phoenix in that a clearer section heading might help. I'm not sure we really need separate quote pages; the purpose of the quotes is to illustrate the character in question and a few quotes are enough for that in all cases I can think of. In that vein, I'd also agree that quotes of dubious notability should be culled - quotes like "Hell yes" or "Take that" do little to illustrate a character. Beyond those notable quotes, I don't really see the value of having complete quote listings. We could also list every tree in the Capital Wasteland, but there wouldn't be much value in that either :-)
That aside, having one especially characteristic quote at the top of the page seems like a decent idea to me. -- Porter21 (talk) 17:58, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
My feeling on including a quotations template at the top of an NPC page is that it would be redundant with the Quotes section. My desire to have the template at the top was tied to the idea of removing the Quotes section altogether. So, unless there's a great desire to begin including the template, I won't move ahead with that idea either.--Gothemasticator 20:42, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

To sum up and make sure I understand the consensus here, are we agreed that

  • Porter will create a bot to rename the Quotes sections. "Notable quotes" all right with everybody? Better ideas?
  • We can delete the Liberty Prime quotes and Vault 87 super mutant quotes pages, reincorporating the notable ones back into the main articles. (Vault4, thanks for putting those together! It helped this discussion a lot to see the idea in action!)
  • Gothemasticator will update project guidelines to reflect new notability standards.
  • We can all then cull quotes and link users to the guidelines for educational purposes.--Gothemasticator 20:42, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
I've merged the quote pages back in yesterday when I was a general cleanup spree (still have a patrol backlog of ~100 new pages :/). The only suggestions I'd have for the name of the quote sections would be "memorable quotes" or "unique quotes", although "notable quotes" isn't bad either. Otherwise I'd agree with your summary. -- Porter21 (talk) 09:41, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
I suggest renaming all FO3 "Quotes" sections to "Notable quotes." Then, we can document what counts as notable either on the project page here or perhaps on the layout guidelines page. This calls for a bot-user.--Gothemasticator 15:26, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
I'll do it once my bot has finished adding the "rent" parameter to the interaction tables. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:30, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Porter.--Gothemasticator 15:48, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
Should be finished. Let me know if the bot missed some instances. -- Porter21 (talk) 16:45, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

What's up with all the extra sub-titles?[edit source]

Take Willow, the ghoul sentry outside the Museum of History, as an example. There are "Related quests" and "Other interactions," I don't know if these are a part of this Fallout 3 NPC overhaul project, but regardless of that, it's fairly useless to add those sub-titles since they serve no purpose. I've also seen several minor, named NPC's with those and other sub-titles, where nothing is written. Is there really any point at all in having those sub-titles when they serve no purpose for a ceratin NPC? I understand they might serve some purpose for some other named NPC's, but I just don't see the point in adding those sub-titles if they aren't needed for a certain specific NPC. So like I said, is there really any point at all in having those sub-titles when they serve no purpose for a certain NPC? Sadist King 13:28, April 15, 2010 (UTC)Sadist King

Please see #New template for interactions sections! above, it explains where these are coming from. They were added by bot along with the new interactions template. The plan was that they'd be removed from the articles where they're not needed; they were only inserted to facilitate restructuring the "Interactions" section. There's indeed little use in having empty sections. -- Porter21 (talk) 07:14, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

So if I see any of the sub-titles that serves no purpose, I just might as well remove them? Sadist King 13:37, April 16, 2010 (UTC)Sadist King

If there is no content in the "Results of player actions" section which would belong in any of the other sub-sections, sure. The template and the headlines were inserted before the previous content of the section, so it's possible that some stuff which should be in one of the other sub-sections is in there. Otherwise, feel free to remove unneeded headlines. -- Porter21 (talk) 19:09, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Project Update! 5/4/2010[edit source]

Thank you, participants, for your continued work on this ongoing project! It's a very large project, and progress can be slow at times. However, I am committed to bringing this project to completion before the release of New Vegas. Below are some recent highlights of our progress:

  • The project has been moved forward greatly by the recent template work of Porter.
  • The situations regarding bugs and quotes are now brought to standardization.
  • The Interactions section is now standardized.

We still have a ways to go. Below are several updates to guidelines we should all become familiar with.

Bugs[edit source]

{{verify|~~~~~}}, our new template, should be placed at the end of all unverified bug entries. Bugs that remain unverified when the timer is up should be removed. When the timer is up, the item will appear on the special page [[Category:Verification_overdue]].

{{platforms|xbox360|ps3|pc}}, our recently revived template, should be placed at the beginning of confirmed bug entries, choosing the appropriate platforms to include.

The Fallout 3 bugs article is a useful resource for project participants to use when culling the Bugs sections of NPC articles.

  • Remove these kinds of bugs in particular:
    • Graphical glitches: heads spinning, guns upside-down, bodies stretching, etc. These are not unique to any one NPC.
    • Unexplained Aggro: All followers exhibit this, and we do not need to list it.
    • NPCs referring to the player character by the wrong gender.
    • Any of the general or common bugs found on the main bug article page.
  • Megaton residents should still get a bug entry about their dying/going missing problem. See Andy Stahl for a good wording.
  • Do allow entries of usually excluded bugs if their presence can disrupt the NPC's role in a quest. See, for instance, Bryan Wilks.

Notable quotes[edit source]

New subsection title! We should only include quotes that are

  • unique to that NPC.
  • notable (even a unique way of saying, "Pineapple! Run!" is not notable).
  • 5 quotes is an upper limit.
  • Let's remove the qualifiers from quotes (e.g., "when searching for an enemy" and "random"). When not incorrect, these are often not helpful info either.

Notes[edit source]

Many Notes sections are out of hand. Let's rein them in.

  • Incorporate notes into Background or Interactions wherever possible.
  • Reword notes for clarity and brevity.
  • Remove notes whose info is duplicated in Inventory or the Infobox. For instance, remove notes describing the karma of (or karma cost/benefit for killing) NPCs.

Birthdates[edit source]

Any mentions of the character's age, like in Bryan Wilks or Derek Pacion, should not be in the intro section but in the Background section, and converted to years (2277-the age), like I just did at Ernest Roe. Please also add the dates to the Birthdates article. Ausir(talk) 01:00, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Interactions section and template[edit source]

Below is the version of the Interactions section that we will implement. Porter's bot has made most of the template changes necessary. In some cases, pages may still contain remnants of older templates - these should be changed by hand as appropriate. I realize that there has been some confusion and inconsistency regarding the usage of the Interactions section, but below is the form we will be using, including an example based on Moira Brown.

Thanks for everyone's patience while this section has been ironed out piecemeal over several months! That we now have a working way forward is a testament to everybody's involvement in the project.

===Interactions overview===
{{Interactions FO3
|essential       =
|enslave         =
|ear             =
|finger          =
|temp companion  =
|perm companion  =
|wares           =
|caps            =
|max condition   =
|heal            =
|cure addiction  =
|cure radiation  =
|rent            =
|quests started  =
|quests involved =


===Effects of player actions===

An example[edit source]

Description of the subsections[edit source]

  • Quests - We will no longer be using the {{main}} template, but instead use the format in the Moira Brown example above. Follow the linked quest title with a one or two sentence summary of the NPC's role in the quest. Random encounters should also go into this section. Please note that there is a redirect for each encounter's name as given on Fallout 3 random encounters for easier linking of individual encounters. See Amata Almodovar for an example.
  • Effects - List effects of the player's actions on the NPC. To use the given example, while Moira is the questgiver for The Wasteland Survival Guide, only dissuading her from writing the book has an effect on Moira herself (increased repair abilities), hence only that is mentioned (and not e.g. the various rewards she gives to the player). As another example, she doesn't really play any role in The Power of the Atom, but blowing Megaton up makes her turn into a ghoul and migrate to Rivet City/Underworld, hence that is mentioned in this section (and not "Quests"). Or to use another example, killing Moriarty makes Gob the owner of his saloon, hence that would be mentioned in the "Effects" section of Gob's article.
  • Other interactions - Optional subsection not included by the template! Only include this section when it is necessary and useful for describing significant interactions between the player and the NPC - interactions not coverable in Quests or Effects. For an example, please see the NPC project sample article.

Project Discussion[edit source]

Concerning the Interactions section[edit source]

So, do you want us to put bullet points for the quests/effects sections? Instead of the {{main|insert quest here}} thing? In the main Moira article it still uses this format, but maybe nobody got around to editing it yet. Metalspork talk  contribs 20:58, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Basically like it's in the project's sample article (minus the no-longer-used "Other interactions" section. -- Porter21 (talk) 21:36, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

I've got another question. Should the Quests section be in any type of order? For example, Desmond starts 3 different quests and is involved in 2 others. "The Local Flavor" ends when you talk to him for the first time, and then he starts the next quest. Should The Local Flavor be listed first, and all of the others in continuity, or should they be listed separately for which ones he starts and which ones he's involved in? Since he doesn't start TLF, but it comes first, should it be listed before the others he starts? That was complicated, I'm sorry :P Metalspork talk  contribs 02:44, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Putting the quests in sequential order is nice, but, no, there is no necessary order to follow.--Gothemasticator 04:51, May 5, 2010 (UTC)
The naming of two template parameters has changed so they comply with the results of the Terminology: "Followers" discussion:
  • perm follower is now perm companion
  • temp follower is now temp companion
My bot is currently updating the character articles, and I've updated the example above. Just FYI :) -- Porter21 (talk) 09:12, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Bulleted lists[edit source]

Small question: should separate entries in the Behind the scenes section be bulleted as well? Ghouly89 (Talk) 22:33, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Behind the scenes entries should be bulleted.--Gothemasticator 04:51, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Displaying Tag Skills of all NPC's[edit source]

I wish I could do it but I play with Xbox 360 only, so I can't use GECK and have no way of finding out for myself. I think NPC's tag skills should be added with the SPECIAL, especially the ones related to combat. It would help to know what weapon to reverse-pickpocket into them, should it be Small Guns, Big Guns, Energy Weapons, Melee, etc. Eddo36 18:49, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Laggy edit page[edit source]

The "Edit" page for this project keeps giving me the Not Responding error for internet explorer. I tried a Windows XP home edition and Windows 7 starter edition, but the problem still occured. After about 5 minutes of yelling and sighing, I managed to sign my name in the project member list. Does anyone else have this issue? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Well, for me it takes a while to save but otherwise it's fine (Firefox). It's probably because it's such a large page due to the progress tables. -- Porter21 (talk) 19:04, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

The latest...[edit source]

Well, we seem to have settled all the open questions concerning formatting, layout, etc. So, what remains now is to knock out the rest of the pages on the progress tables. Let's get this sucker done in the next month and ten days! --Gothemasticator 01:41, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

Merchants[edit source]

Apologies if I am out of line here, but I play on the 360 and have no direct access to the G.E.C.K. but info on the merchants here is rather vague and lacking from what I've seen...

See, for the Lock'N'Load unmarked quest "Economics of Violence" at the end, there's actually a fairly detailed set of info on his before and after inventories. I believe the info would be easiest to be found with the G.E.C.K. but I've noticed that most merchants actually have certain items that are common at restock and always in repeating condition patterns, and it's just a random selection of most of their potential items at restock. [I.E. I think Crow (The armor caravan merchant?) before investment always had anywhere from 3-5 fully repaired motorcycle helmets. I found this useful because they're cheap (7 caps at high barter I believe), they weigh very little (1 unit), and they max at 5 DR, which is good to switch to in the heat of battle... but they were always common, a random # of them was always there after each restock point that I happened to meet him at... ]

Could someone find out the list of potential items they can have at a restock point, and the min and max Caps they may have at each restock point to make things easier on things. Mainly, I've noticed the Weapons Chart page for Big Guns AoE type has the Fat Man listed as "Limited" to only "10 copies" "11 with Broken Steel" but I know I've seen 1 in Flak 'N' Shrapnel's Shop, does that not mean it cannot restock and thus is not an infinitely obtainable weapon which can be used to repair other Fat Man(s) or the highly powerful, Highly Dangerous Experimental MIRV? Also, in the FO3 add-on The Pitt, can Friday not stock Infiltrators and Gamma Shield armors in her unique pitt-raider store? Thus making her as apparently useful as every other Merchant in the game except worse at repair with a max skill of 11-21 (I think she wears armor, so the Point LookOut coveralls would give her a relatively useless +10 repair skill boost.

If Friday cannot, then I doubt anyone else would restock Infiltrators or Gamma Shield Armor anywhere else making the items limited and rare, and thus meaning, we should not repair them with second and third copies of them (I tend to hold multiple fully repaired copies of all weapons and armor and sell the excess, I then rotate each copy and only once they get a good 10+ % degraded do I repair on of the copies, until then, whenever I'm back in town, I switch out non-unique weapons with a better condition (fully repaired copy, if possible) and put the other on ice until even the best condition version meets the 10% requirement (usually enough that the use of a nearly-dead version of w/e item I use to repair it is less of a cap net-loss than the cost of selling that item and having the vendor repair my item, with the bonus of being able to repair to 100%)

I personally doubt that Friday restocks Infiltrators, and Gamma Shield Armor meaning she's of no use to me, but it'd be extra helpful if there was a table gotten from the G.E.C.K. itself of what she CAN stock, and the max # of the condition version. and etc. relevant information.

What I mean by "max # of the condition version" is, once again with crow, he can have 4 copies of power armor (after investment, before, I'm not sure. Without access to the files I can't be certain it stops at 4, and my memory may be overexaggerating 4 already, but it will only have 2 of a specific condition (like ~27%) usually lower condition than the separate one that is always separated for having a differing condition (usually higher) and the likes. Same with Combat armor, he can have 4 copies but he tends to have one close to 33% condition that can be stocked in his inventory at restock points, if it gets randomly generated, he can have two stacked copies of combat armor of lesser-but-equal-to-each-other condition versions, and maybe one more of a condition that's either less or more than the stacked copies, I cannot remember. But they're always the same armor and quality essentially. If they appear, they're any of those same versions, and if you buy them and store them somewhere and return with the restocked versions and put them in the same locker, they stack because they're more-or-less identical versions.

One would be a little over 100 caps in value, the next would be a little over 50 I believe, and the last set would be close to 20... the value "19" sticks in my head, though I cannot remember precisely which value stacks two high at restock points...

If I've made my point clear then I would like a response, and I'm seriously sorry for any seemingly-off-topic tangents I went into... I'm trying to fix that, but I am obsessive with being thorough. 10:22, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

Point Lookout[edit source]

Participants, the Point Lookout table is nearly complete! All we need is a background for Catherine and Panada and a revised image of Jiang. Hopefully, we can get this done as soon as possible! Best regards, Kastera (talk) 00:37, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

I have just made a background for both Panada and Caterine. If anyone could take a look at them, it would be much appreciated. Also, we need a 14x10 image for Jiang. Best regards, Kastera (talk) 18:21, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Project finished[edit source]

Unbelievable but true - the project is finished. Thanks to everybody who partipated!

My bot is currently removing the project tags from all affected pages - it should be done in an hour or so. We'll also have to make sure that the guidelines for the "interactions" section get added to FW:LAYC - would be nice if somebody could make a forum thread for that. -- Porter21 (talk) 00:41, May 31, 2011 (UTC)

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