We're not mad just arguing a point

Yeah I'm just fuming...

Ok good to know

"Hitler was not evil because DB Cooper hijacked a plane"

Same mood.

Fascists can fight fascists too, it's not illegal.

Well, you get what I mean.

Oh God, I hope this post isn't as a result of mine about the Enclave. Haha

Both the Enclave and the Brotherhood of Steel (especially the East Coast Brotherhood in 2287) are categorically, unequivocally fascist. I made a long argument as to why quite a while ago, both of them literally tick all of the boxes.

As for "evil", the concept of evil is subjective but usually agreed upon in various ways by consensus. The Enclave are largely deemed by the fanbase to be evil, the Brotherhood less so.

If anybody here wants to see a detailed analysis as to why the Brotherhood are undeniably Fascist by definition of the phrase and ideology, let me know.

🍿this should be interesting

^^Not because I disagree but I do want to see the argument

^Sure, no problem. Background context is this was in response to a post that compared Brotherhood Squires to Hitlerjugend/Hitler Youth, and the point I made stemmed a little bit around the Nazism aspect of things.

In short, this discusses why the Brotherhood aren't Nazis, but they are Fascists.

Post starts here:

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Whilst the Brotherhood draws a lot of valid concerns concerning Fascism (far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism), it is not remotely akin to Nazism other than it's humanocentrism, exterminative (genocidal) urges and it's inexplicable Fascist overtones. Both groups exercise their separate and distinct ideologies via the utilisation of Fascistic ideals, which is the only valid comparison.

Nazism and the BoS are akin due to Fascism because of:

1. forcible suppression of opposition (any faction that disagrees with them is usually met with violence to exert control over them, seen in Fallout 4's storyline and mentioned by Scribe Haylen. Precisely what the Nazis did when they came to power.)

2. dictatorial power (each chapter is led de facto by an Elder, which is given power de jure by the High Elder and Elder council, which also exercises de facto status. Hitler exercised de facto power.)

3. strong regimentation of society (Brotherhood hierarchy and societal division dependent upon membership to the Orders of the Shield, Sword and Quill, ranks within those hierarchies and roles given, age and experience, etc. Not similar to Nazi Germany, but there were clear gender role distinctions and strong ideals concerning various ways to serve the country.)

The one parallel that the Brotherhood doesn't have with Fascism (and Nazism) is it's links to strong economy.

Whilst the Brotherhood are no doubt in possession of territories in D.C that now boast strong economies, and in a Fallout 4 ending would no doubt come into possession of the Commonwealth which possesses at least one strong economy (Diamond City), these strong economies are not ran or regulated by the Brotherhood of Steel with the exception of their regulation of technology. The Brotherhood has absolutely no hand in economic growth other than their mere military presence. The only meddling mentioned in the economy is when Proctor Teagan suggests using Vertibirds to protect caravans and get good deals, which is ultimately tied into their military presence.

The Brotherhood's links to Nazism without Fascism is as follows:

1. disdain for liberalist ideals (If the Brotherhood tells you to do something, you do it. If you're holding an election and they need to dig up your polling stations to get at technology underneath, then it's happening. They might feel bad about it later. If you have technology they want, they'll take it from you. If they believe you are using technology irresponsibly, they'll stop you.)

However, these points need to be considered:

1. fervent antisemitism similar to speciesism/disdain for non-humans (Nazi ideological behaviours towards Jewish people is akin to the Brotherhood's hatred of non-humans, e.g. ghouls, synths, super mutants, etc.)

First off, let me start by saying that the Brotherhood are not racist, they are speciesist. The different groups that they show disdain towards may be former humans and/or linked to humans in various ways, but none of them are races, they are their own separate species. Also, concerning the way these groups multiply, a species does not need to reproduce sexually, they can also reproduce asexually without becoming involved with another member of that species.

Whilst the Brotherhood does show disdain and sometimes genocidal behaviour towards ghouls, synths, super mutants, and so on, every group mentioned can be potentially dangerous, uniquely to themselves.

Super Mutants for instance can show intellectual deterioration leading to bouts of violence and psychotic rage, the forming of dangerous packs of Super Mutants and armies has been a bloody chapter of Brotherhood history.

Ghouls can turn feral for reasons unknown, leading to the same similar bouts of psychotic rage, violence and the forming of dangerous feral ghoul packs.

Synths are the only odd ones out, being dangerous due to the fact they were modelled after humans, by humans, and are an insidious weapon in the hands of the Institute. The Brotherhood also has reservations with the amalgamation of biology and mechanics, and consider their fast reproduction (being made incredibly quicker than a human baby growing into a fully grown adult) could be a problem in the synths' hands should they decide to wage war against humans.

All of these things are genuine concerns inevitably (and in some cases justifiably) leading to disdain or even hatred towards these groups. Nazi concerns aimed at Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, disabled people and anyone ethnically non-white were not genuine concerns at all. Whilst the Brotherhood show their concerns to these groups, they do not resort to mass killings and genocide (with the exception of synths, whether they are living or not and thus 'people' is still an active debate).

And the next point is:

2. scientific racism and eugenics

The Brotherhood have genuine concerns of a scientific nature to the aforementioned groups, however unlike the Nazis, their concerns are valid and based upon facts (e.g. how Super Mutants and Synths were created, how Ghouls can turn feral, the dangers of the creation of these groups via science and/or means that can be scientifically explained, such as radiation). The Nazis' scientific racism raised a lot of issues in the twentieth century concerning ethnic differences (and lack thereof in many cases, which the Nazis did not consider), however their justifications for other groups being dangerous and inferior were completely based upon ideological dogma, not scientific fact. And obviously, the Brotherhood doesn't exercise any form of eugenics.

Therefore, when considering the Brotherhood's relations to Nazism, almost all of them are as a result of both groups gravitating heavily towards Fascism, not because both groups share any kind of ideological or political belief.

In the case of Squires being compared to Hitler Youth, putting the ideological dogma of both groups aside, that is another key feature of Fascism (strong regimented society, authoritarian ultranationalism). The Japanese both before and during WWII had the Great Japan Youth Party. The Italians (under figures and inventors of Fascism such as Benito Mussolini and Giovanni Gentile) had Opera Nazionale Balilla (ONB). To say the Brotherhood Squires are Hitler Youth is false, but you are right in that they are similar, but not because the Brotherhood and the Nazis are similar in any other way than that they are both Fascistic.

One can deny comparisons of the Brotherhood and the Nazis, but one cannot deny they are both Fascistic to varying degrees. The Brotherhood is one of my favourite factions, and I've defended them and sung their praises alot on the wiki over the years, but I have also criticised them, and I'm not that proud to deny that they are unequivocally Fascistic.

This kid doesn't even know what he's talking about.